GraniRapid -- liquid vs. powder -- old vs. new

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Vegas_sparky

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You had called it on the Portland earlier. I didn't doubt it. But, I never knew just how crappy mortar could get from sitting around.
 

Eurob

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Part of it is right , Vegas . I have a test with a 2 year old mortar which surpassed all of them , in drying times .:)

Pure Portland is known to '' behave '' like John showed in the photos , depending of the storage conditions or a few months of '' resting '' .
 

Eurob

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Alright , here is the 51hours mark and there are still 2 samples that need checking .

1) New liquid & old powder 51h mark


New tests -- GR new L & old P  51hours mark.jpg



Finally , the cure is taking place and it is at about 80 - 90% cured . So it took almost the same time as the first test indicated ..... almost 10 times longer for the cure to happen . So the powder -- past best by date -- is affecting the cure process by about 1000% . Be aware !


2) Old liquid & Old powder 51h mark


New tests --  GR  old L & old P 51hours mark.jpg




Finally , the cure is taking place and it is at about 60 - 70% cured . So it took almost the same time as the first test indicated ..... almost 10 times longer for the cure to happen . So the powder -- past best by date -- is affecting the cure process by about 1000% . Be aware !



I will monitor the pictures forming under the glass and compare them with the first original test . For now I think the test is conclusive enough and the cure is taking place .
 

Jadnashua

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What might also be revealing is that once cement gets old in the bag, a greater and greater proportion of it actually becomes hydrated. IOW, it's essentially inert, and acts like there's lots more aggregate in the bag with less cement. The overall strength of it will be diminished, sometimes radically, depending on how much has already cooked off. Cement that is still left, will continue to grow crystals, and eventually provide some strength, but never as much as if all of the designed material was active in the mix.

It is very important to avoid using any cement based product that is either old, the bag has been opened or damaged, or the material wasn't stored properly and got excessively damp. Some of the stuff now comes in plastic bags, which can help, but is not perfect.
 

Eurob

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I don't know John ..... but it would be really interesting to know about how they work in different situations , conditions and how they are affected by them .

If you know about them , you could avoid the PITA situations .
 

Jadnashua

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FWIW, the size of the cement particle, and the amount of inhibitors in the mix, and the exact mix of what is called cement all affect how fast the actual cement cures. All cement would hydrate/cure pretty quickly if they didn't put some inhibitors in the mix. There are ways to coat the cement particles with various materials that can slow down the hydration, and just adding some things into the mix (a common, and cheap one is gypsum) will slow it down. Not putting any of those things into the cement mix makes it hydrate faster. Think hydraulic cement...from wetted/mixed, to hard is only a few minutes and is the reason, aside from the fact that it swells when it cures (i.e., the cured state has a bigger volume than the powder/slurry state), that it is used to seal holes and stop water flow. So, essentially, a rapid set mortar has fewer hydration inhibitors in it than 'normal' stuff. Putting in a lot of them gives you a longer pot life. And, a rapid set mortar, because it does have fewer inhibitors in it, is more likely to go 'bad' as it ages since any moisture that gets into the bag will start the curing process. It may not be obvious, as it is a slow process as moisture intrudes, and since there often isn't much moisture, the cement can't grow big crystals which would cause things to bond together firmly. But leave a bag containing cement long enough, and eventually, it will become rock hard.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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We need to invent a simple test rig that can be used on every project. Something that can test tensile and shear forces on these installs.

I keep thinking about a hook of sorts tied into some plywood and then set like tile. Then you could pull on it (up or down) or hang weight from it.

1/4" steel is good for about 320 pounds. Designing it so it fails around 80 pounds makes any common garbage can a good weight source....

I keep trying different things.....

I want to get a shot of me hanging from a steam shower ceiling like spider man. Set two foot holds with loops and two hand holds. Leave them a week and then hang there! LOL I think it would make a good photo..... As long as there is no plumber crack violations and I suck in my gut.

You know someone from a government job called me to test tensile strengths of a tile install. There are requirements for this no doubt with government projects and large commercial projects. It's just the little guy. The small home that are fly by the seat of your pants....
 

Eurob

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You have to like John for his constant '' pushing the limits '' thinking .

Spider Man with a wrench avatar lol

Then you will need to make your ceiling under floor standards and deflection ratings , some powerful suckers to hold the spiderman and then you can call it

Spiderman's no it will be an infringement of sorts , will call it

Whipple's test , simple and to the point . :)
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Last time I check I was friggen 235..... What a fat bastard I am! With Soccer the past 7 weeks I bet I down to about 220 right now.

I want to check the stages of waterproofing. Not the finished tile install...

My idea is you have these clips and you stick them up in a few spots to check the work of the builder. Hang a couple over the vanity ceiling (because now it gets tile). Hang some on the wall. Hang some on the backer board...

Everything.

Roberto has shown us the importance of date codes. I know I have been preaching this for years myself. RSCB you keep finding out dated product in your town - I bet your the only one living there that even knows they should check.

Shared Data Men. This is key. If we teach people that they need to check thin-sets then stores will not order so much at one time. Then we change the way the companies do their basics - so it serves us better not them. If we challenge "Paid For" studies with private data. Then the masses can pick for themselves who is right and who is selling product.

I enjoy Terry's forum much better now that I have Ignored the Kerdi Salesman. I enjoy the back and forth with you men because we all work together - in this industry. I could see use busting each others balls on any job site. Most likely we three chirping Vegas for leaving his copper end clips everywhere! lol kidding Vegas.
 

Eurob

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John , we need to get a testing facility together ......... Cowboys testing facility

The GR test showed us how the rapid fire is affected by storage -- long term -- of the powder ..... or there is something that affects the cure process .

It did cure , no doubt and I will submerge them probably tomorrow or so . We can see how they last in such of environment -- I think it will pass it with flying colors -- , besides the sheet membrane , which is not recommended for the application .

It will also be interesting to see if and how the premium modified mortar is protecting the sheet membrane , the bond to it and how well the bond in between the elements is performing.
 

ShowerDude

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Roberto has shown us the importance of date codes. I know I have been preaching this for years myself. RSCB you keep finding out dated product in your town - I bet your the only one living there that even knows they should check.

Shared Data Men. This is key. If we teach people that they need to check thin-sets then stores will not order so much at one time. Then we change the way the companies do their basics - so it serves us better not them. If we challenge "Paid For" studies with private data. Then the masses can pick for themselves who is right and who is selling product.

I enjoy Terry's forum much better now that I have Ignored the Kerdi Salesman. I enjoy the back and forth with you men because we all work together - in this industry. I could see use busting each others balls on any job site. Most likely we three chirping Vegas for leaving his copper end clips everywhere! lol kidding Vegas.

Yes and THX Roberto for all your efforts. Well done.

John I wish I had only been paying attention to date codes sooner. INSTALLER Error.

I found so much out of date code Laticrete product in the last year alone.

UPDATE : edit rant ...slander is childish ,

continue rocking my ignore button
 
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JohnfrWhipple

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.....John I wish I had only been paying attention to date codes sooner. INSTALLER Error.....

Is it... Have you ever been taught by a manufacture to check. Do the building codes require checking? Nope - nope.

When I had my first Kerdi failure (Kerdi falling off walls with vacuum) my Schluter rep asked about it right away (the date codes). When I had my first self levelling failure I found out from a cement chemist my error (old self levelling).

So I started checking like a Ninja all the time. School of Hard Nocks. I bet if you read every printed item from Schluter, Wedi, Laticrete, Custom, Ardex and the like that not one of them mentions this in their packaging.... I wonder why? Yet if you have a failure they will certainly ask you for their secret date codes, batch numbers and where you bought the material.

This is why I snap pictures of the date codes and check them before I leave my supplier.

Your issue with Laticrete Sku's is alarming to me. In Vancouver I have only found one bag in the past three years out of date. Mapei's products are super fresh here since some are made local. As are Flex-Tile's but I don't like the supplier for that line. Custom's products are hit and mess here in vancouver depending on where you shop.

There is so much more to this industry than watching You Tube videos. You need to understand the science and protect yourself from so many things.....

These days settling beams. Shrinking homes. Radiant floor leaks are what worry me most. You need to safe guard against these with your installations.....
 

Eurob

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Is it... Have you ever been taught by a manufacture to check. Do the building codes require checking? Nope - nope.

When I had my first Kerdi failure (Kerdi falling off walls with vacuum) my Schluter rep asked about it right away (the date codes). When I had my first self levelling failure I found out from a cement chemist my error (old self levelling).

So I started checking like a Ninja all the time. School of Hard Nocks. I bet if you read every printed item from Schluter, Wedi, Laticrete, Custom, Ardex and the like that not one of them mentions this in their packaging.... I wonder why? Yet if you have a failure they will certainly ask you for their secret date codes, batch numbers and where you bought the material.

This is why I snap pictures of the date codes and check them before I leave my supplier.


That's a very good point there , John . Seen outdated products too , but there shouldn't be so much drop in qualities with a product under the 2 years mark .

For sure a product under the 3 months production date is best to achieve all the qualities , especially the curing times . But if only the sooooo low standard of 50psi is required , who will complain ..... quite a few of them -- modified -- can achieve that even if it is out of date .
 
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