Just wondering if system is working properly

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Rutherfordguy

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Bought a new house with a private well system and was wondering if this sounds normal. The reason I ask is my other house had a community well system for 3 properties and I was the only one who used it. It had two 200 gallon bladder tanks and when the pump would kick on it would run for several minutes to fill these up but after that I could go almost a whole day or more without the pump coming on. So back to the house I bought now. Of course it has one much smaller tank, an AO Smith model V-60. Pressure on is 40 pounds and pressure off is 60 pounds. Submersible pump -350 ft well. There is marking on the tank stating air pressure checked in 2012 and is set at 38 psi. With this system I noticed when the pump kicks on it only takes 15-20 seconds to bring the pressure up to 60 psi and it cuts off. A quick shower and a dishwasher load will drain it back down and it will kick on again. Sound pretty normal for this smaller system? Just not use to it and want to make sure I don’t have any issues. Pump was supposedly replaced recently per owner.
 

Reach4

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That V60 is a 20 gallon tank with a rated 5.3 gallon drawdown. This could be sufficient if your pump could only deliver 5 GPM. Rule of thumb is that the pump should run a minute or more.

You could add a 44 gallon tank in parallel or replace the V60 with maybe a 65 gallon pressure tank.
 

Valveman

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Run time of only 20 seconds will destroy the pump. A pump needs a minimum of one minute run time, two minutes is better, and running continuously is the best thing for a pump.

The same way your 20 gallon V60 only holds 5 gallons of water, a 200 gallon tank only holds about 50 gallons. Filling a V60 in 20 seconds means your pump is putting out about 15 GPM. So you would need at least a 60 gallon tank, and 120 gallon would be better, although it is very expensive and takes up a lot of room.

However, a Cycle Stop Valve would be best as it keeps the pump running continuously as long as you are using any water. The little V60 (20 gallon) tank would work fine with a CSV, as it really only needs about a 4.5 gallon tank anyway.
 

Rutherfordguy

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Run time of only 20 seconds will destroy the pump. A pump needs a minimum of one minute run time, two minutes is better, and running continuously is the best thing for a pump.

The same way your 20 gallon V60 only holds 5 gallons of water, a 200 gallon tank only holds about 50 gallons. Filling a V60 in 20 seconds means your pump is putting out about 15 GPM. So you would need at least a 60 gallon tank, and 120 gallon would be better, although it is very expensive and takes up a lot of room.

However, a Cycle Stop Valve would be best as it keeps the pump running continuously as long as you are using any water. The little V60 (20 gallon) tank would work fine with a CSV, as it really only needs about a 4.5 gallon tank anyway.
 

Rutherfordguy

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Thanks for the help. I have some contacts in the tank business so I am going to add a 60 gallon tank and keep the 20 gallon in place until it goes. It is just me and my wife now in the house so demand is down from when I had all the kids. The tank and pressure switch are located below my stairs in the basement along with the water heater. No room there for the 60 gallon tank but if I am not mistaken I can add the new tank anywhere on the system as long as it is downstream of the pressure switch. I found a good spot with a connection at the end of the 3/4" main. I was just going to extend the main to the tank and add a hose bibb, ball valve and pressure relief valve at the tank which will also be in the basement (same level as existing tank). Will set the tank charge at 38 psi prior to filling. Do you have to do anything else during installation. I was going to keep the hose bibb open to get the air out of the line until water runs out and was wondering does any air get trapped in the bladder.
 

Reach4

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I would not worry about a little air in the bladder/diaphram underside. If there is some air, it will absorb into the water. Actually, you probably got a diaphragm tank (better) rather than a bladder tank with a replaceable bladder.

I don't think that most people would put a pressure relief valve there. I guess you are thinking it is a good place to discharge water in case the pressure switch fails in the "on" condition?

If your pressure tank under the stairs fails later, you could maybe replace it with a 5 or 10 gallon unit. You need one at the pressure switch, but it could be a smaller one. Of course replacing it with another 20 would give better capacity.
 

LLigetfa

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Ideally the tank should be close to the pressure switch. If there is too much friction loss between the switch and the tank, you could have issues with the switch shutting off the pump prematurely.
 

Reach4

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He will continue to have a smaller pressure tank at the pressure switch, so that will work well.
 

Valveman

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Yes if you have the pressure switch close to one of the tanks it will work. However, too much distance of ¾” pipe between the pressure tanks will cause them to fill at different rates.

Because of friction loss between the two tanks, if the pressure switch is on the first tank it will fill first and the pump will shut off. Then the first tank will empty into the second tank and the pressure will drop. If it drops enough the pump will start again and the process is repeated until the second tank is finally full.

If the pressure switch is on the second tank, the friction loss between the two will cause more pressure in the first tank than the second tank. So when the pressure switch on the second tank shuts off the pump, the first tank will bleed more pressure into the second tank and the pressure will increase above the shut off pressure. Sometimes the pressure will increase enough to make the pressure relief valve pop off.

You may have been reading some of my stuff, which says the second tank can be a long way from the first tank. This is only true when using a Cycle Stop Valve as the CSV will only fill the tanks at 1 GPM. At 1 GPM there is no friction loss between the tanks and they will fill evenly, no matter how far they are apart or how small the water line is.

But of course if you had a Cycle Stop Valve you wouldn’t need the second tank. Your contacts in the tank business need to start learning how to make bicycle seats or something else as big tanks are now obsolete.
 

Rutherfordguy

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Thanks Reach4 for the help. Actually valveman my contacts sell commercial tanks and booster pump systems for commercial buildings so I doubt they will be making bicycle seats unless your CSV's are perfect for that application too. It seems 9 out of 10 of your replies to people are to push your product. I once wrote in on some issues I had with lightning and I believe you tried to sell me a CSV then too. True I know far less than you on the subject and much of what you say may have some merit but your arrogance ruins your credibility. I guess you can ban me from this site for saying that as you are a moderator but I can probably find help somewhere else where someone is not always trying to sell me their product. That is what true help is.
 

Lowell

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Thanks Reach4 for the help. Actually valveman my contacts sell commercial tanks and booster pump systems for commercial buildings so I doubt they will be making bicycle seats unless your CSV's are perfect for that application too. It seems 9 out of 10 of your replies to people are to push your product. I once wrote in on some issues I had with lightning and I believe you tried to sell me a CSV then too. True I know far less than you on the subject and much of what you say may have some merit but your arrogance ruins your credibility. I guess you can ban me from this site for saying that as you are a moderator but I can probably find help somewhere else where someone is not always trying to sell me their product. That is what true help is.



I certainly have nothing but praise for "valveman"for all of the advice he has given to me and others in the past.
For you as a new member, I think "your arrogance ruins your credibilty"
Yes, I do have a CSV and it works great,
Valveman has always been right on in his advice to me.
 

Reach4

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Valveman has very deep knowledge, and he has been very helpful sharing information and help over a wide range of well information.
 

LLigetfa

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Actually valveman my contacts sell commercial tanks and booster pump systems for commercial buildings so I doubt they will be making bicycle seats unless your CSV's are perfect for that application too...
Actually, valveman makes CSVs for large municipal systems. He comes by his arrogance honestly.
 

Rutherfordguy

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As I noted above I do not really question valveman’s knowledge. In fact after reviewing what is available about his product online I can find no fault in it and will consider using it for my application. I just think he may come across a bit hard on other technology out than his own product.
 

Valveman

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Sorry, don’t mean to sound arrogant. I am just telling it like it is. 9 out of 10 pump problems ARE caused by cycling. So I probably mention CSV’s 8 out of 10 times. Lightning is not one of those problems caused by cycling, so I should not have mentioned a CSV for that. But many times people just think it was lighting when in fact it was cycling that caused the failure and lighting wrongfully got the blame.

Cycle Stop Valves work even better on commercial and municipal applications. The CSV makes pumps last longer, uses much smaller pressure tanks and/or completely eliminates the need for water towers and VFD’s. That would cut out about 75% of the income for your contacts compared to using the old style methods. So they better hope their customers don’t search the Internet and hear about CSV’s or they really will need to start making bicycle seats or something else.

In over 22 years of selling CSV’s I have learned people do not like being corrected or told they are doing something wrong. Over all those years I have gone from wanting to be liked, to realizing I am not doing my job unless people hate me. No one likes being told they are wrong. But don’t shoot the messenger. I didn’t make this stuff up. I am just telling you things that many people don’t want you to know, because it would save you a lot of money and cut them out of a lot of sales.

As far as “coming across hard on other technologies”, I am just trying to straighten out some of the myth-understandings (lies) people are telling about pump systems. The latest burr under my saddle is a class that will be given at the Ground Water Expo this December. Titled “Protecting Groundwater using Variable Speed Technology”, this class claims to teach professionals how VFD’s save energy, protects pumping equipment, and even saves water by minimizing over pumping of wells. Lies, lies, lies! All for getting the end users to spend more for VFD pump systems that won’t last as long or save water.

I studied electronics and knew VFD’s were not the answer 25+ years ago. The number of “professionals” who do not know this, or are blatantly lying to be able to sell more profitable and shorter-lived products like VFD’s, blows me away. There are a lot of big companies who would love to shut me up, if they could prove one single thing I say is incorrect. Over the years many have tried to argue toe to toe on this subject with me and failed miserably. If confidence is considered arrogance, then I can see why you would think that of me. But it is not arrogance, its just fact.

THANKS Reach, LL, and Lowell.
 

Rutherfordman

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OK I am back. I felt like I had kicked a hornets nest. If you have done that you run like hell as far as you can before you look back. So I decided to look back and see that everything here is actually calm. My lightning issue was very unique and after alot of trial and error I managed to at least get some control on it. My old house was on top of a mountain. Anytime lightning would strike and get in contact with the power lines nearby or a tree it would take out my control box on my 3HP submersible. I guess 775 feet of 1-1/4" pipe in an 800 foot well kinda attracted it. What better ground rod. I turned the breaker off during storms, still got hit. I put a surge protector on the breaker, never tripped it but still got the controller. I put ground rods around the pump house and tied it all together with heavy copper wire thinking the lightning was coming in from the ground, still no good. I finally learned how to test the control box parts and most everytime it would only take out the little relay (burnt the hair sized coil wire inside it) so I learned to rebuild it and instead of a 350 dollar control box I cut my losses to a 40 dollar relay. Then I got the idea to put a plug on the ground wire from the pole and I disconnected the ground during storms. I still had a ground rod on the system at the pump house. This actually cut down my losses alot and I was only lossing one relay a year when I got a close in strike instead of 3 or 4. So the lightning was never on the power side but the ground wire which I guess makes sense. Dumb hillbilly learned something. Anyway I left a stack of new relays and a rebuilt box for the new owner and gave him instructions. Keep the power off and ground wire unplugged during storms. He only uses the house on weekends so he has not lost a relay yet.
Anyway valveman I understand where you are coming from now and appreciate your write-up above. I may catch hell for this but I am on the commercial side of plumbing design mainly doing medical gas and plumbing systems for hospitals. I will tell you though I have learned more from some of the old plumbers in the field than any book you can buy so I have alot of respect for many of you on this forum. I do very little with wells but was fascinated with the deep one I had on the mountain. I like having a little storage on the system in case of power failure as I like living on the fringes of society (city boy told me that), so I guess I am a big dumb tank lover. So with that said might I get your opinion on the tank. I dont have any gpm info on my pump. The tank will be about 30 feet of 3/4" pex pipe away from the pressure switch with probably 6 elbows on the main. Of course there are tees also to fixtures. Does this sound like it will create enough pressure loss to give me issues? It is tough for me to calculate the loss myself without some kind of flow info so this is where experience that you probably have comes into play. I guess if it does not work I could add the CSV:) and will probably do so anyways at some point. If so I may be able to get the bigger tank where the little one is but it will be tight and I hate not having good access to stuff.
 

Valveman

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Even with the wires to the pump disconnected, lightning can hit the ground within a ½ mile of the well and still get the motor. You are lucky it has just been getting the relay. Another disconnect between the control box and the pump might stop the lightning from getting the relay.

Pressure tanks are not a reliable way to store water for times of power outages. Unless you know when the power is going off and top off the tank before that happens, the tank could and will probably (Murphys Law) be empty when the power goes off. With a 40/60 pressure switch the pressure always seems to be at about 41 PSI when the power goes off, and the tank won’t have a gallon in it at that time and pressure. A couple of 5 gallon water bottles in the closet is the surest way to have some backup water stored.

The pressure switch must be within a foot or so of a tank. Having the pressure switch just a bit too far from the tank will cause it to bounce the pump on/off rapidly. If your regular tank is that far away from the pressure switch, put a little 2.2 or 4.5 gallon tank over with the pressure switch.
 

Rutherfordman

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The existing 20 gallon tank is right at the pressure switch so I am thinking I will be good. Thanks for the help,
I dont know why the well guys install such small tanks unless they use the CSV. I have a friend here that is just about done with building a house and I mentioned this to him. He said his tank was in the "hot rock" with the well head for his submersible 2 HP pump and he wondered why it was so small. I told him about the CSV as a way to fix the problem if they did not install one for him. I am betting they did not.
 

Craigpump

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Why do well guys install small tanks...

1) that's what the customer wants because customers know more than we do

2) that's what the builder can afford because he still has granite counter tops, marble tile, cherry cabinets, crown moulding and coffered ceilings to pay for. Along with a new diamond for the wife

3) small tanks = short pump life = future service work = more money

4) because some guys can't sell their product or service so they sell price, thinking they can "make up" the loss in volume.
 

Boycedrilling

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Great answer Craig's pump. My customers get an 80 gallon bladder tank, unless it won't physically fit. Doesn't matter if I use a cycle stop or a vfd, they still get a big tank.

If they want "cheap", they can buy from someone else. Like one of my customers told me "I've done cheap, I want right".
 
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