Is a steam room considered as a submerged application? What a debate

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JohnfrWhipple

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Roberto you get full marks for sticking to your guns over this debate. Do the other boys your chatting with understand the issue that RSCB had? It appears not.

I recommend only 254. Especially now that the answer skirting and bull shit politically type answer seem to be flowing.....

Good on you mate for asking the tough questions.

Must be hard to take money with the left hand and then bitch slap with the right. If you know what I'm saying....
 

JohnfrWhipple

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I think the real trick to the right thin-set is avoiding a non-modifed product. Unless of course you like cheap ass thin-set and the company's waterproofing install sheet says you must.

The real goal is flexibility. So an S2 thin-set is a must.

All I got is Laticrete 254 and Mapei's KeraBond/KeraLastic mix. Mapei's GraniRapid is up there as well. Maybe Ardex X77 but I have never tried it in a steam shower build.

I wonder what recommendations we could pry out of Noble Company. I'll shoot Nelson an email. Everytime I ask questions like this I get those friendly type answers. Where they want to stay neutral and not hurt people's feelings....

I'll try again.

I tell my online clients that I know Laticrete and Noble Company have tag team on thousands and thousands of hotel room projects. I know they work all together. I have done most of my jobs with this tag team.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Getting answers is hard. I have learned over the years that asking the question the right way is key sometimes to mining info.

So asking the question. What thin-sets can I use in a steam shower over NobleSeal TS is too loose.

Asking the question. Should I use Latecrete 254 or Laticrete 315 in my steam shower is more specific. Or which would you pick for your home. These types of questions get answered much better.
 

Eurob

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John , RSCB's issue was an eye opener . I didn't find -- yet -- any concrete literature where mortar manufactures define specific mortars for a steam shower / room .

Diagrams with highly premium modified mortars is one ting , but the issue remains .

Where porcelain tiles need specific -- written --requirements to be used in a steam shower , low perm ratings for the water and vapor proof membranes -- written -- requirements ............. mortars are just left out of the equation . No specific written approvals or limitations in the mortars literature for use in steam rooms .

If we are to use an S2 mortar , I would remind you the254 is not classified as one . It is a good '' pookey '' :D , as some will say . :)
 

JohnfrWhipple

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John , RSCB's issue was an eye opener .

Agreed. Scary.

I didn't find -- yet -- any concrete literature where mortar manufactures define specific mortars for a steam shower / room .

Me neither - I have wasted a lot of time looking.

Diagrams with highly premium modified mortars is one ting , but the issue remains .

Where porcelain tiles need specific -- written --requirements to be used in a steam shower , low perm ratings for the water and vapor proof membranes -- written -- requirements ............. mortars are just left out of the equation . No specific written approvals or limitations in the mortars literature for use in steam rooms .

TTMAC and TCNA recommend modified thin-set. That's it. Odd don't you think?

If we are to use an S2 mortar , I would remind you the254 is not classified as one . It is a good '' pookey '' :D , as some will say . :)

Thanks Roberto. I assumed it was. Not sure where I picked that up. I know the Laticrete Steam Shower specs it and I have used it for years. I find it as sticky as KeraBond/Keralastic and Grani Rapid. I guess I just assumed it was. Thanks for setting me straight.

Pookey: What this is.


 

Eurob

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TTMAC and TCNA recommend modified thin-set. That's it. Odd don't you think?


Modified mortars are under ANSI 118.4 ANSI 118.11 ANSI 118.15 and have many many many approved for them . Are they saying , as long as you use one , all of them are recommended for the steam rooms / showers ?
 

JohnfrWhipple

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NO

I'm saying that the TCNA and TTMAC in the steam shower specifications only list modified thin-sets. They do not list un modified.

This in my mind allows any modified thin-set I think. But clearly we have learned that you best double check any thin-set with the maker of the thin-set first.

Mapei has no steam shower specification.

Ardex has no steam shower specification.

Noble says any thin-set can be used I think.

Schluter spec non-modified.


What I'm saying is that thanks to RSCB's observation we a learning that there is more to the story the deeper we dig. I think you have found another Spinning Vortex of tile info.

A says talk to B. B says check with C. C says ask A. Round and round we go. In the end it's the tile guys fault.

254-Platinum-50-G.jpg

I say use Laticrete 254. My number one recommendation. It is my only recommendation going forward until I learn different. I used it my daughter bathroom. I have had to demo tiles set with it. The stuff is awesome. To bad anyone building a Kerdi shower can't use it! lol
 

Eurob

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The 254 is a pretty good mortar , John . Among others of course -- X77 , GR , KK , etc. -- . :)
 

Jadnashua

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I've never known someone who had a tile fall off of a wall when used over Kerdi with an unmodified. Do you? Same thing about a tile on Ditra.

The issue is getting the modified component to initially dry/polymerize (depending on the type). Many, not all remain stable once that initially happens. That can take months. AN unmodified will be stable regardless of the moisture content applied afterwards and the fact that it is only attached to the membrane via interlocking around the fleece means that you have lots of room for differential movement on two layers of fleece, and the bond to the tile is FAR stronger than the bond to the membrane.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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"This is a big trail of interconnected rabbit holes. The way I look at things, sand and cement worked well. I know some Turkish steam showers locally that are over 100 years old and more nearly that. The trick of modern technology is to put chemicals and other products in with the cement so anyone can create their own steam shower with minimal craft training. Anyone mud and wet set an elliptical arch lately? So the job of today's installer is to figure out which thinset will not turn into toothpaste when it gets hot and wet. The industry does test for wet, but not hot and wet. I have been on latex leaching claims when the wrong choice is made." - Dave Gobis Source

How do you contribute to a discussion with out saying anything or recommending one product. Dave Gobis is "Da Man" just ask him. Read the post above. What can we learn from this? The key is the comment about Latex Leaching. The sad part is Dave does not say what thin-set to choose. He hints and the importance of choosing right, but does not say which one to pick. Can you blame him? He works as a specifier and consultant - why give up his picks for free.

The second key point is that the industry does not even test for hot and wet applications. So what do you take from this comment. I take from it that importance of getting the pick from the company who makes it.

Once again Laticrete does lots of private testing. They recommend Laticrete 254 thin-set for a steam shower. They make dozens of thin-sets. They recommend one for a steam shower build.

Now Dave also talks about 100 year old turkish steam showers still working today. He did not talk about the small tile size in the post. He also did not talk about the water weep system many Hammam's use to divert water down behind the walls. There is lots to understand in a real Hammam build and other factors in play. You need to look at the big picture. Take the little key points from posts like this one above.

Roberto I love that you keep asking the tuff questions. Keep it up!
 

ShowerDude

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once again .....thx Roberto for pushing the truth on the industry forum from texas... tye same forum that profits from sponsorship of leaching latex mortars!
 

Eurob

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I think latex leaching -- on both , mortars and grout -- is not a new known problem and it existed for quite some time .

The conclusions of some experts are :


  1. Latex can be designed to prevent leaching but only after the latex is cured out by forming a film.

  2. All latexes are not designed to not leach.


Some suggest that I should know how to cure my mortar .......... how should I cure it , if it doesn't cure on its own . I am supposed to use it not to make it cure .

Experts are saying to use fans or heating sources depending of the conditions , but others say not to do so -- concern that you will change the chemistry involved in the curing process -- .

The use of mortars for a steam shower/room is all over the place -- use whatevs -- and make sure you cure your mortar . What a joke !
 

JohnfrWhipple

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The problem with you Roberto as I see it is that your too $%$ing smart. You also are articulate, unlike me and my bad Engrish. You know too much to buy into the bull shit answers these online men repeat like gospell.

Here is a tough question.

What is the white film that forms on our water buckets? You know the kind on our thin-set buckets. Or the white foam from the water bucket where you spin your paddle....

What's the shinny material in Grani Rapid? Is it the same as the stuff in Ardex 8+9?

Why does Grani Rapid take 2 plus days to kick when setting Sheet Membrane? I thought it was rapid setting self curing mortar?

Why does Schluter Germany use Ardex 8+9 to seem their Kerdi overlaps? Why is sold as Kerdi Coll in Europe?

What are the effects of Fly Ash on thin-sets? What percentage of Fly Ash is allowed by Mapei, Laticrete or Custom when purchasing cement from suppliers?

Good luck with the answers to these questions. These are some of things that keep me up at night....
 

Eurob

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Kerakoll make their own products

Fly Ash doesn't play a big role in thin-sets .

Shinny material --- maybe high solids , but I'm no chemist -- not like the 8+9 .

Don't know how long the GR takes to completely cure under the sheet -- never lift them once installed . I know the skin coat cures normally .

Why you do this , smarty pants ? :p You jealous I am trying to learn English !

Those questions don't keep me up at night ! :)
 

JohnfrWhipple

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.....Fly Ash doesn't play a big role in thin-sets ......

Are you sure? I keep hearing warnings about Fly Ash.

My neighbour just had a load of cement poured for a custom retaining wall about four months back. He paid for the framing to be done with 1"x6" fir boards. Once poured and stripped the concrete face took on the wood grain look. It's very nice. About 3 months ago I noticed a little whitening. About 2 weeks ago I saw the first signs of true efflorescence. Last week I inspect closely and found cracks in the concrete. The forms where build right and proper rebar placed before pouring the concrete.

This neighbour's job is concrete. He does high end stuff and does it well.

Why the $%&^ would his own job go South?

I reason that the job was taking longer to place and vibrate. I guess they cranked in some admix to slow the cure. I think they spun the truck a few turns and let it rip down the chute into the pump truck. I think the admix messed up the mix. You know who specs the admix on most jobs I see? The placer....

So a guy being paid say $2,000 for the day and his crew can $%&^ up a $60,000 retaining wall...... Nice.


 
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Eurob

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Jadnashua

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On large, commercial jobs, they typically take a sample of each batch of concrete and test it. The results take a bit, but it's often better to know before you've completed much more of the structure than at the end. Sometimes, the only way to verify what you have is to take a sample, mold it into a standard block, let it cure, and then test it. Other than that, you're at the mercy of the supplier and the crew, the weather (temperature has a big part in this) and often, the traffic in getting it to you if the truck was delayed, or there was a delay at the job site in getting things poured. We like to think that concrete and mortars are simple mixes, but that's simply not true, then throw in environmental conditions and the time it takes to place the materials, and there are a lot of ways to have a less than ideal result.

All sorts of things are used as the aggregate and fillers in both concrete and mortars...just depends on the characteristics you're looking for, what's available locally (it's expensive to ship concrete so they tend to use what's available locally to the plant), and cheapest for the job at hand. When I was on a tour at Mapei in September, they had samples of 12 different 'sand' sources from around the USA and Canada. They need to make all of their colored grouts look the same, but the color variations in the sand was significant from one source to the other...so, the same named product, built at a regional plant, each needed a different mix of ingredients to make them look and perform the same. Try getting your grout color to be consistent when you have 12 different colored sands to work with at the various plants. The same issue is true with cements and mortars. You buy a bag of X-brand, regardless of where you are, you expect them to function the same...this is not always simple, but one thing a good company has to deal with.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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....... but it is really our role ?.....

No not really. We are not the tile police just average installers who consume these materials weekly. I think we need to watch each other's back. Pipe up when shit goes South. Like RSCB did with the thin-set. He could have said nothing. But he shared. I learned - you learned, round and round everybody wins.
 
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