Failure of a large mud shower pan.

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Paul Lepkowski

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Hi guys. I'm a very old retired engineer. 10 years ago I anticipated the day when a wife or I would need a wheelchair by having a tile contractor build a big fancy wheelchair accessible shower, 5 feet wide by 8 1/2 feet long, with a Grohe thermostat, Speakman showerhead, three Grohe body sprays and a hand shower on opposite walls in one narrow end. It’s in a ranch house over a 5 foot crawlspace. To support its weight four round footings were installed below the frost line with adjustable post jacks supporting two 4 x 12 beams oriented transversely under the joists. Five of the 2 x 10 x 19’ joists were then notched down to about 5 inches over the new beams. A center drain mud floor with a flexible membrane and tile facing was that installed in the recess. This produced a level entry door at the end of one of the 8 foot walls. The walls and ceiling of the shower were tile over cement board.

It was beautiful! Until two weeks ago, that is. My wife had her stroke and has balance issues so we were installing a giant sit-down bathtub in the adjacent room. In the process of installing plumbing the plumber noticed heavy mold deposits in the crawlspace below the shower pan. After a lot of poking around we concluded that the membrane buried in the mud floor was leaking through overlapping joints. The plumber ripped out the mud floor and then found that the backer board in the walls was crumbling, so he ripped out the lower courses of tile and the first backer board in the walls. When I found that we can no longer match the wall tile I told him to rip out the rest of the walls. The ceiling is still intact, but I find that it was installed over green board, so I may rip that out too. We think we've killed the mold with successive applications of boric acid, vinegar, and chlorine bleach.

Now what do I do … a new mud floor … a solid molded composite insert … or a membrane over a tapered support?

Tiles bond well to concrete because they have similar expansion properties, so floors have been done this way for 3000 years. Lead or copper pans under sloped mud have not been able to last for more than 30 years due to corrosion.

A sandwich of plywood plus a tapered foam layer plus a membrane then tile seems to work well, but the largest preformed substrate available is 60" x 60". It seems silly to marry that, via a cold joint, with 4'6" of mud.

I would like to use a linear drain along the long wall instead of a center drain. The pitches in four different directions in the old floor were destabilizing my wife when she walked across them. I can't locate a company that can mold a one-piece floor pan with a linear drain along the long edge.

There doesn't seem to be a very satisfactory solution.

I'm going to start by replacing the jack posts with concrete filled lally columns, and adjusting the leveling of the transverse beams. I will then cut 8’ 6” off of the trimmed joists and install new joists of appropriate height. The new joists will only have to span 4 feet between the beams and 4 feet between the first team and the foundation wall, so they don't need to be very tall.

I saw an elegant shower drain in 1950 in the Highland Park, NY YMCA where I took a swimming test. In the 20' x 10' shower I noticed that all of the water was draining in one direction and there was no visible drain. On closer inspection I discovered a 3/8" x 20' slot at the base of one wall which the water was draining through. The Janet it took me down to the basement, (after I got dressed), where I found that the girl’s shower was right next to the boy’s shower, (which seemed very interesting at the time), and that the water from both showers exited through the slots in the two walls and fell into a 20’ long open trough. The janitor told me that it had been installed in 1910 and it worked very well. Occasionally a girl would lose some jewelry which would wash through the slot and landing in the open trough. It was easy to pick the jewelry out of the trough and get a reward when he returned it to the girl. He seemed disappointed that the boys never lost anything.

I wonder if it would be possible to build something like this in my house.

The price of linear drains is appalling. Schluter suggests that I use two of their 4 foot drains end to end. Best Tile in Wappingers Falls sells them for $240. These things are simple stainless steel “U” channels with a grate on top. I sketched and 8'6" “U” channel and Metalworks Inc. in the Bronx quoted $170 with a grate. Then I remembered the trough hanging below the slot in the YMCA and I found that Home Depot sells a 10 foot vinyl rain gutter for about $4. That's a big jump from $480 to $170 to $4!
Is there any way for me to fabricate a 60” x 107” planar slope out of something other than mud, layer it with concrete board, then with a membrane, then with tile, and route the drain water through a slot under the wall tile where it will fall into a removable vinyl rain gutter hanging from a joist?

Like I asked before, what do I do? Help!

Paul in Fishkill Plains, NY
 

Eurob

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You cannot beat a mud -- molding it in any form -- floor , especially for a wheelchair accessible shower .

Surface membrane -- i.e. sheet membrane -- should be easy to tie with a linear drain .

Talking about linear drain -- 48'' for 240$ -- sounds pretty good to me .

Where does the gutter fit in the shower constructions , beats me .

Nice story about the gang shower , but it is quite hard to maintain -- clean -- . A water collector which sends it to another one , with no access from the top or sides .
 

Paul Lepkowski

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JW - I don't particularly like Schluter myself, I just mentioned the price to compare it to alternatives.

Roberto - you made a lot of points.

I don't trust the mud job. The previous one failed when the internal membrane joints leaked.

Do you know any specific way to layer plywood, then cement board, then a membrane then tile?

$240 for 48" is good, but $170 for 106" of SS is better - www.metalworksinc.com .

What adhesive do you suggest for typing a membrane to a stainless steel linear drain channel?

The YMCA drain was spectacularly east to clean. Push junk through the slot, reach into the trough and pick it out.

The gutter would rest on a 2x3 attached to the side of a joist. Blocks of wood attached with thumb screws to the adjacent close joist would hold it in place. To clean it you would remove the thumb screws and blocks of wood and the gutter would fall into your hands. Like the YMCA drain there would be an air gap between the end of the tile and the gutter. There would be a second air gap between the gutter discharge and a 4" x 2" coupling on a 2" drain pipe leading into a union p trap. If debris passed through the gutter you could take the p trap apart.

I appreciate that any wood support for tiles must be rigid. Assuming that I span the 60" width with six 2x6 joists on 10" centers and cover them with double 3/4" tongue and groove plywood is there any way to overlay the plywood with concrete board or some other release agent, then with a membrane, and then with tile?

I will send some pictures and drawings tomorrow.

Paul in Fishkill Plains, NY
 

Eurob

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You are killing me with the gutter set up :oops: ......... are you bound by any codes ? What your plumber is thinking -- recommending -- for this set up ?

Same -- codes -- applies for the linear drain ...... Kerdi fix usually does it , another 40$ to add to the drain .
 
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Jadnashua

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Schluter's line drain comes with Kerdi bonded to it. Some of the other companies do not come with a tileable surface. They specify priming it with one of their waterproofing products - Hydroban works for that on theirs, and Mapei has one that they specify for their linear drain, but I forget which product it is. IOW, there are ways to create a waterproof seam to the drain. On most of the linear drains, it is the grate that ends up costing a significant amount, with the tileable insert from Schluter being their least expensive option. Cutting, stamping the holes, polishing, etc. the grate and keeping the whole thing flat so it fits properly takes some time, and time is money.

A single slope mudbed will be your least expensive, approved method to make your sloped bed. There are numerous ways to build a shower shown in the TCNA guidelines, but none involve cbu on the floor. There are two 'classes' of cbu, those made of inert components, mostly sand and concrete; and, those called fiber-cement boards (Hardiebacker is one of those). The TCNA guidelines call for different build techniques be used between the two different classes of materials. Fiber-cement boards cannot be buried below the top of the pan, 'real' cement boards, can. You want your mudbed to be at least 1.25" at its thinnest, and a bit more is better unless you use a reinforced mud product (follow the manufacturer's instructions).

I much prefer a topical surface membrane in a shower. Done properly, nothing beneath it ever gets wet, including the walls.

In a shower, unless it is a steam shower, the ceiling and anything above the height of the showerhead is not considered a wet area. The stuff currently on the ceiling should be okay. But, consider that greenboard on a ceiling needs supports at 12" OC, not the typical 16"OC of most homes...it tends to bow from its own weight if it isn't supported at those shorter distances. Greenboard has not been approved for showers for years now...

You could make a sloped trench along that long wall rather than using a full-width linear drain and put one centered in the middle, or even a conventional drain, but then your trench would need to be wider. You'd slope the trench to the drain. This would save some money, but it is one more feature to build into the pan, so the completed cost may come out similar. Tiling it and the pan-side edge would be harder, but Schluter does make some tapered SS trim that could be used to cover that edge. Considering that it would be facing towards the wall, you probably wouldn't see it at all , and being SS, would be easier to clean.

There are lots of waterproof membranes out there, including some liquid ones, that, if installed properly, do not leak. Schluter and Noble have been around the longest and have the longest track record. The TCNA procedure B422 was written for Schluter and their bonded membrane flange. Prior uses (including Schluter's) were more of a hybrid system using clamping drains. That was the first approved, fully bonded waterproofed shower method totally with topical waterproofing. Others, especially in the last few years, have come out with similar systems once Schluter's patent protection ran out...imitation is sometimes considered the best form of flattery. Feel free to use any product from any of the big names, install it properly, and you should not have issues. Any of the them, not installed properly, can have issues. Building a shower is not particularly hard, but it is very detail oriented...skip or mess up one step, and the result can lead to problems. The TCNA says that 70-80% of the tiled showers installed in the USA are not built properly, so, unfortunately, you are not in the minority...attention to detail is critical, as is good workmanship and understanding the products selected.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Paul your design is hard to picture.

And the heart of every good shower is a primary shower drain and approved waterproofing liner. The liner should be in one piece and not seamed. The inside corners should be folded. The shower should be flood tested.

You wrote:

JW - I don't particularly like Schluter myself, I just mentioned the price to compare it to alternatives......

Not all drains are created equal. Many of the top sellers drain can rust if you can believe it. Just because a drain says stainless steel does not mean that the steel won't rust.

It's alarming the trend here.

Now I see it in shower clamping drain bolts (first sign on a new Sioux Chief). I see it in our tile tools (MarshelTown going down hill fast in quality). And in shower drains.

I have seen drains from Luxe and My Shower Grate Shop rusting on my own projects years back. It's scary. Local codes might call for stainless steel but they don't cover the solder joints.

Buyer beware.

I like ACO's drains. I think they are the best. That is why they are to only brand I continue to sell and install.....
 
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ShowerDude

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Oh Man.....another retired engineer in Paul!

In one sentence he asks questions, in another he tells us what works and why, in a 3rd he offers up a plan of non code compliance and makeshift rain gutters?

where to start with Paul I do not know......Very interesting post to be sure.

Jim, hes all yours...LOL.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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photo_24.jpg

What's the history behind the town name?

I'm thinking you could make a cool team logo out of that name...

swordfish_vs_hammerhead_by_gagaman-d2ysoa5-300x228.jpg

FISHKILL PLAINS
you_kill_what_embroidered_hat-p233039758151165398tc0of_324.jpg



 

ShowerDude

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Paul, in hindsight i realize my comments may have appeared sarcastic. ( me sarcastic?)

Maybe you could simplify your question(s) and upload a few pictures of what were dealing with. We can try to help, but youre going to get a bunch of code compliant and industry standards/norms & responses even here from us the robinhoods of the tiling industry.

ACO sells a budget line of ABS linear drains. Start by getting rid of the rain gutter and look at a customization of a few strainers and a clamping drain.? do not source a rusty cheap linear drain based on price, we have already covered that topic in full here on terrys site.

I do like that youre comfortable being outside the box but lets stay off the roof and away from rain gutters please......
 

Paul Lepkowski

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JW asks - What's the history behind the town name? I'm thinking you could make a cool team logo out of that name...

Hi John. The Dutch colonized the Hudson Valley before the English did. They established Nieuw-Amsterdam after Henry Hudson's voyage of 1609 and developed trade in the Hudson valley. It was renamed New York on September 8, 1664 after the English kicked the Dutch out. The Dutch language still hangs on in place names. Fort Nassau, named after Maurice of Nassau, Prince of Orange, Holland's stadholder, was renamed Fort Orange, then Beverwyck and finally Albany which is now the capital of New York State.

The Dutch word "kille" means watercourse which could be a creek, stream, river or even a tidal strait in English. Among others we have the Kill Van Kull, the Beaverkill, and the Fishkill. Presumably the Fishkill had a lot of fish in it, not necessarily dead ones. The Fishkill arises in McKinney Pond north of Bruzgul Road in the town of Union Vale. It meanders west until it empties into the Hudson on the south border of the city of Beacon. Fishkill Plains is a broad flat alluvial valley extending north from Fishkill Creek in the vicinity of Hopewell Junction. Sprout Creek runs south through Fishkill Plains and empties into Fishkill Creek.

Not much happened here until about 1940 when Bing Crosby showed up, bought some land from the Robinson family, and started breeding Aberdeen Angus cattle and training race horses under the name "Black Watch Farms". He would visit once in a while and stay in a house on Robinson Lane. Black Watch went bankrupt in the 1970s. IBM acquired an option on some of this land west of Robinson Lane and drilled a lot of test wells in the 1980s. They needed a lot of water to fabricate integrated circuits. They eventually located the microprocessor fab about 3 miles southwest near Lime Kiln Road just north of I84.

Since then nothing much has happened here except that Holstein cows keep wandering from a dairy farm on Hillside Lake Road. Two of them wandered into a backyard swimming pool a few years ago. That woke a lot of people up for a day.

Paul
 

Paul Lepkowski

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RedShoeconterbalance said - "in hindsight i realize my comments may have appeared sarcastic. ( me sarcastic?)"

Naw, you're not sarcastric, you just don't understand Polack engineers from New York! When we are confronted with a weird problem we ask the weird questions first in order to eliminate them.

Paul in Fishkill Plains, NY
 

Paul Lepkowski

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Vegas sparkey, please send some popcorn. I ran out. Being polish I have plenty of kielbasa, do you want some?

Paul in Fishkill Plains, NY
 

Paul Lepkowski

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Hi guys,

Everybody keeps mentioning codes. As far as the building department is concerned, here in this backwater, they enforce a sanitary code which applies to everything after a trap or air gap, and a structure code which specifies the strength of joists, flooring and footings. There are no contractors, plumbing or electrical licenses. A new plan has to be stamped by an architect or engineer to have a permit issued. A repair does not require a permit or inspection except for electrical inspection. This project is a repair of a large failed shower pan. It is, itself, an air gap and the sanitary code does not apply until the water enters the trap.

I need to pick one of five possible construction methods for this 107" by 60" shower:

1. a sloped solid cast polymer solid surface slab over a plywood subfloor,
2. a classic wet mud job with a plywood subfloor, a lead pan, a sloped mud layer, then tile,
3. a modern dry mud job with a plywood subfloor, a release layer (roof felt?), a sloped mud bed, a membrane, then tile set in thinset,
4. a no-mud job with a plywood subfloor, a pitched layer of plastic foam, a membrane, then tile,
5. a weird idea with a sloped plywood subfloor, a release layer of (maybe) backer board, a membrane, then tile.

1. The cast polymer slab will take a month to get because of its size. I have three quotes from NY, PA and MD.

2. The classic mud job is probably out because I don't think I remember where to buy a lead sheet.

3. The modern sloped dry mud job is a possibility. The five local tiling contractors are afraid of it because of the size. They're not sure they can get the pitch right over 107 inch distance. I found one old mason who said he could do the slope in deck mud and quoted $600 just for the mud. He doesn't want to do the carpentry, membrane or tile.
4. 5. The no mud jobs are questionable. Both the Schluter and Laticrete tech reps said you can’t put the membrane over plywood wood, but when I asked if you could put it over a plywood, thinset, backer board sandwich they would not say yes.

Will a sandwich of plywood, backer board, thinset, membrane, thinset, and tile work????? There seems to be a problem between the rigid tile and the flexible plywood or backer board.

How thick should a wire reinforced dry mud bed be if it is 60” by 107” with a slope of 1/4” per foot (1.25” total) across the 60” dimension???? Would 1-1/2” on the thin side and 2-3/4” on the thick side be thick enough???

Do you know any tricks for keeping the pitch smooth and constant over 60”???

Should I put roofing felt (or something else) under the mud bed?

Should there be anything, (thinset, or backer board), between the mud bed and the membrane?

I don’t want this thing to fail again!

Paul in Fishkill Plains NY
 

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#3. is my preferred method. 3/4 ply, 15# felt, 2.5 galv lath and weep divot.

but first

earlier Paul, you spoke of jack posts and cutting joists. new 2x6 10 oc supported how?

its neat that you have some knowledge of showers at least by mentioning east coast lead pans and dry pack .

any shower you build requires a solid deflection free substrate. this starts with joists/beams and deflection ratings.

why dont you start there and let us see your work so we can better advise in the best shower build for your situation.

im not yet clear on youre framing... and you continue to throw out some pretty ramshackle repair approaches that concern me!

inspections or not, you can still build to or above code, maybe youll sell your home at some point? id look at code compliance regardless for a few reasoms....

are you also claiming good keilbasa there in dutch country?!!!!!
 

Eurob

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Paul , I could tell you that the mud bed -- layer -- didn't fail in your shower . A leak(s) is (are) due to other factors , not the role of the mud bed to be waterproof .

I would say with the #3 option you will be the best served . Just make sure that you don't have any dips or raised spots when you use a straight edge -- in all possible angles -- over the final mud layer . The longer the straight edge , the least your chances to screw up are .

Now, that's a big slope -- 107'' -- it will give you about 2 1/4'' and it will also be hard to make it work for a no-curb shower . Did you consider to built a bench at the end ? It will cut the distance by 26'' - 30 '' and you can install the linear drain in front of it .

You also talk about a 60'' distance for slope ? Do you have pictures of the area in question ?

Mud bed layer can get to a minimum of 3/4'' -- linear drain area -- and thicker depending of your slope distance . Old school -- felt and chicken wire -- worked for a lot and lot of years . Your mud bed should not see water if surface waterproofing is used -- highly recommended -- , so you would be safe . To be able to withstand the chemical attack the chicken wire or reinforced wire layer should be SS -- costly -- , but it is up to you how much of the codes you want to apply -- use -- .

We didn't like the idea of connecting the pipes in a '' wired way '' -- not used to see those type of connections , but you can sketch it up for us , maybe we did misunderstand your idea .

Get rid of the rain gutters .;)
 

Paul Lepkowski

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Hi guys. You keep having trouble visualizing this mess. Here are some pictures. I shrunk these images. If you want more detail in any of them let me know and I'll upload or send a higher image.

#1 - eight years ago as built
#2 through #6 - discovery of leak and mold three weeks ago01 done eight years ago.JPG 02 discover leak and mold.JPG 03 discover leak and mold.JPG 04 discover leak and mold.JPG 05 discover leak and mold.JPG 06 added support beams.JPG
 

Paul Lepkowski

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#10 - #11 subfloor mold
#12 - nice routing of vent through joist without excessive reduction of strength by a professional contractor10 subfloor mold.JPG 11 subfloor mold.JPG 15 vent through joist.JPG
 

Paul Lepkowski

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#16 - #19 joists cut away by a professional contractor eight years ago to recess mud floor below adjacent tile floor level
 

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