potassium chloride usage question

[jayinct]

I recently had a Fleck 2510 softener system installed. It replaced a very old Culligan softener. We are using about 2 bags of potassium chloride a month. It is set on backwashing every 2000 gallons. I don't remember using this much potassium chloride with our old Culligan so am wondering if this is working properly. The water company that installed it rechecked it and said it is fine however I'm not so sure. I hope someone can give me some reassurance. Let me know what info you need to help me make a judgement. I know next to nothing about these systems so bear with me. Thanks!

 

[ditttohead]

The first question is why Potassium? If you don't absolutely have to use it, don't. Here is an article I wrote explaining the differences between sodium Chloride and Potassium Chloride. http://www.impactwaterproducts.com/#!salt-vs-potassium/cz76 This should explain what can be going on. Can you post your current settings, hardness, how many people etc. Do you have the electronic 2510? (SXT) or the electromechanical? If you have the SXT, we can look at some of the diagnostics to see what is going on as well.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[jayinct]

The first question is why Potassium? If you don't absolutely have to use it, don't. Here is an article I wrote explaining the differences between sodium Chloride and Potassium Chloride. http://www.impactwaterproducts.com/#!salt-vs-potassium/cz76 This should explain what can be going on. Can you post your current settings, hardness, how many people etc. Do you have the electronic 2510? (SXT) or the electromechanical? If you have the SXT, we can look at some of the diagnostics to see what is going on as well.

I've always used potassium because I was told it was healthier. I just feel that we used less with our "ancient" Culligan and our water tested fine. With this new system, I'm adding 80 lbs of potassium a month. What settings do you need to know? When our water was tested, hardness was 8 directly from well. We are a working couple so we're home nights and weekends. Our water usage is pretty modest. I think I have the electromechanical 2510.

 

[Bannerman]

What is the grain capacity of your new softener versus your old Culligan? Did you happen to buy a smaller capacity softener than what you had?

The Fleck 2510 model relates to the control valve on top of the resin tank and has nothing to do with the softener capacity.

Your 8 grains hardness is relatively modest. Does your water have any iron in it?

What are the settings programmed on the control valve? There may be some additional settings programmed on the backside of the valve such as the salt setting. There also should be a label located close to where the hose to the brine tank connects to the valve. That label should indicate the brine line flow rate and drain line flow rate. Reply with all of that information or you can post some photos if that is easier.

 

[jayinct]

What is the grain capacity of your new softener versus your old Culligan? Did you happen to buy a smaller capacity softener than what you had?

The Fleck 2510 model relates to the control valve on top of the resin tank and has nothing to do with the softener capacity.

Your 8 grains hardness is relatively modest. Does your water have any iron in it?

What are the settings programmed on the control valve? There may be some additional settings programmed on the backside of the valve such as the salt setting. There also should be a label located close to where the hose to the brine tank connects to the valve. That label should indicate the brine line flow rate and drain line flow rate. Reply with all of that information or you can post some photos if that is easier.

I think the grain capacity is 32000. Not sure so will have to check on that. Does that sound right? This softener is supposed to be comparable to our old Culligan.

I was told that our water is very hard. There was a very noticeable difference when our softener stopped working. We don't have any iron.
It is set to backwash every 2000 gallons .

BLFC: 0.5 GPM
DLFC: - (no numbers, just a dash)
INJECTOR: 01

.5 GPM
1.5 lb salt/min

 

[Reach4]

http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/PentairFiles/Pentair Water Treatment/Manuals/2510 Service Manual 40097.pdf may be the manual.

Page 8 talks about setting for the brine refill time.

 

[jayinct]

http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/PentairFiles/Pentair Water Treatment/Manuals/2510 Service Manual 40097.pdf is the manual.

Page 8 talks about setting for the brine refill time.

When the water company came back to recheck, they said that everything was set properly and if we changed any of the settings we could compromise our unit.
They said that maybe we're using more water than we realize and that's why we're using so much potassium. I guess my question is, " are we really using a lot of water or is backwashing every 2000 gallons too often?

 

[Reach4]

2000 gallons time 8 grains/gallon is 16000 grains. You are using maybe 9 pounds of KCl every regeneration. So does that match what you see?

How much potassium salt that you use (function of minutes and temperature). You should post both, and then somebody who chooses to read ditttohead's link might comment.

Or you could just reduce the fill time by 1 peg and see if your water stays soft.

If at some point you want to move to less salt that costs much less, then you could switch to sodium chloride as most do.

 

[Bannerman]

Yes, 1 cu/ft of resin has 32,000 grains capacity (closer to 30,000 grains in actual practice).

As the average water consumption rate is 60 - 65 gallons per person/day, and as you said you are a couple (2 ppl), your 2000 gallon regeneration setting should mean 1 regeneration about every 2 weeks. (2000 gals ÷ 130 gals/day = 15.3 days).

I am not familiar with the amount of Potassium needed to regenerate 16000 grains (as confirmed by Reach) but even at a high salt setting of 15lbs per regeneration, that should equal only 30lbs/month which is substantially less than the 80lbs/month you stated.

Resin utilized for water softening is most efficiently regenerated with Sodium Chloride (salt). Regenerating the entire 30,000 grain capacity of your softener would require 15lbs of salt but that would be an inefficient setting as it would equal only 2000 grains per pound of salt.

More efficient salt consumption may be obtained by programming the regeneration to occur sooner and by re-adjusting the amount of water entering the brine tank. For example, 8lbs of salt can regenerate 24,000 grains and 6lbs of salt can regenerate 20,000 grains representing 3000 grains/lb and 3333 grains/lb respectively. Each gallon of water entering the brine tank will dissolve 3lbs of salt.

Although salt is more efficient and common, you have instead chosen to use Potassium as you had done with your old softener. As you were happy with the results from your old softener, there is no reason you can't achieve comparable results with your new unit. Though the installer said there is nothing wrong with the current programming, he may have programmed for consistent results regardless of temperature (see Dittohead's article) and not for efficiency.

Data still required includes the brine tank refill time currently programmed. It appears you may need to count the pins installed on the refill section of the program wheel as each pin represents 2 minutes at 0.5 gal/min = ? Gallons brine water. Knowing the brine refill amount will permit the amount of Potassium consumed per regeneration to be calculated.

Once you provide the refill time, that along with the other info already provided, will assist Dittohead or another forum participant who has Potassium experience, with the background data to better assist you. Also useful would be a description of the environment where the softener is located as well as your incoming water temperature (as per Dittohead's article).

 

[jayinct]

Yes, 1 cu/ft of resin has 32,000 grains capacity (closer to 30,000 grains in actual practice).

As the average water consumption rate is 60 - 65 gallons per person/day, and as you said you are a couple (2 ppl), your 2000 gallon regeneration setting should mean 1 regeneration about every 2 weeks. (2000 gals ÷ 130 gals/day = 15.3 days).

I am not familiar with the amount of Potassium needed to regenerate 16000 grains (as confirmed by Reach) but even at a high salt setting of 15lbs per regeneration, that should equal only 30lbs/month which is substantially less than the 80lbs/month you stated.

Resin utilized for water softening is most efficiently regenerated with Sodium Chloride (salt). Regenerating the entire 30,000 grain capacity of your softener would require 15lbs of salt but that would be an inefficient setting as it would equal only 2000 grains per pound of salt.

More efficient salt consumption may be obtained by programming the regeneration to occur sooner and by re-adjusting the amount of water entering the brine tank. For example, 8lbs of salt can regenerate 24,000 grains and 6lbs of salt can regenerate 20,000 grains representing 3000 grains/lb and 3333 grains/lb respectively. Each gallon of water entering the brine tank will dissolve 3lbs of salt.

Although salt is more efficient and common, you have instead chosen to use Potassium as you had done with your old softener. As you were happy with the results from your old softener, there is no reason you can't achieve comparable results with your new unit. Though the installer said there is nothing wrong with the current programming, he may have programmed for consistent results regardless of temperature (see Dittohead's article) and not for efficiency.

Data still required includes the brine tank refill time currently programmed. It appears you may need to count the pins installed on the refill section of the program wheel as each pin represents 2 minutes at 0.5 gal/min = ? Gallons brine water. Knowing the brine refill amount will permit the amount of Potassium consumed per regeneration to be calculated.

Once you provide the refill time, that along with the other info already provided, will assist Dittohead or another forum participant who has Potassium experience, with the background data to better assist you. Also useful would be a description of the environment where the softener is located as well as your incoming water temperature (as per Dittohead's article).

I'm looking at the program wheel so will tell you what I see. Five pins starting at 0, five pins starting at 68, and two pins starting at 89. The softener is located in our basement. Temp might vary a little from season to season but not much. I'm not sure of incoming water temp but it's pretty cold,especially in winter.

 

[Bannerman]

In comparing your program wheel findings to the Fleck 2510 Service Manual that Reach had linked to, it appears that the brine refill time is determined by the number of holes between your last pin in hole #76 and the final two pins in holes 88 & 90. You indicate a pin is in hole 89 but as the holes advance by 2, the pin location will be an even number which I expect is actually 88.

As 88 - 76 = 12 minutes (6 holes) and as your BLFC label specifies 0.5 gal/min, this should result in your brine refill being 6 gallons.

Dittohead's article chart shows the dissolve rate for Potassium Chloride is highly reduced with cold water. As your cold brine water refill will warm up to surrounding temp as it sits in the brine tank between regeneration cycles, the water temp will likely eventually reach approx 67F, anticipating your basement is a few degrees cooler than the remainder of your house.

Dittohead's chart shows at 70F, less than 2lbs of Potassium is dissolved per gallon. Using a lower rate of 1.75lbs/gal, the potassium consumed per regeneration cycle should equal 10.5lbs. That amount of potassium to regenerate only 16,000 grains seems excessive as it equates to only 1523.8 grains/lb which appears as very poor efficiency, but I'm not sure what is expected when using Potassium.

Using the data you provided even at this efficiency, your 2 person household, 8 grains hardness and 2000 gallon (16,000 gr) regeneration limit should require 2 regens/mo, consuming ~21 lbs of potassium/mo, not 80lbs as you had previously indicated. Assuming the unit is operating as it should and you're not using an excessive amount of water, your high rate of Potassium consumption remains unexplained.

As you have now provided background information that can be utilized for programming, perhaps a few of the in-the-trade contributors with Potassium experience can make some programming recommendations so as to increase your efficiency and reduce your Potassium consumption.

 

[jayinct]

In comparing your program wheel findings to the Fleck 2510 Service Manual that Reach had linked to, it appears that the brine refill time is determined by the number of holes between your last pin in hole #76 and the final two pins in holes 88 & 90. You indicate a pin is in hole 89 but as the holes advance by 2, the pin location will be an even number which I expect is actually 88.

As 88 - 76 = 12 minutes (6 holes) and as your BLFC label specifies 0.5 gal/min, this should result in your brine refill being 6 gallons.

Dittohead's article chart shows the dissolve rate for Potassium Chloride is highly reduced with cold water. As your cold brine water refill will warm up to surrounding temp as it sits in the brine tank between regeneration cycles, the water temp will likely eventually reach approx 67F, anticipating your basement is a few degrees cooler than the remainder of your house.

Dittohead's chart shows at 70F, less than 2lbs of Potassium is dissolved per gallon. Using a lower rate of 1.75lbs/gal, the potassium consumed per regeneration cycle should equal 10.5lbs. That amount of potassium to regenerate only 16,000 grains seems excessive as it equates to only 1523.8 grains/lb which appears as very poor efficiency, but I'm not sure what is expected when using Potassium.

Using the data you provided even at this efficiency, your 2 person household, 8 grains hardness and 2000 gallon (16,000 gr) regeneration limit should require 2 regens/mo, consuming ~21 lbs of potassium/mo, not 80lbs as you had previously indicated. Assuming the unit is operating as it should and you're not using an excessive amount of water, your high rate of Potassium consumption remains unexplained.

As you have now provided background information that can be utilized for programming, perhaps a few of the in-the-trade contributors with Potassium experience can make some programming recommendations so as to increase your efficiency and reduce your Potassium consumption.

Thanks for taking the time for that detailed explanation. I started this thread knowing very little about my softener but now am beginning to understand. It's a lot to digest so will be rereading the responses a few times more. Now I need to figure out why I'm using so much potassium. It doesn't make sense. How can I figure out if I'm actually only having two regens/mo or is there a way to figure out how much water we are actually using? Also, the water seems much softer than it used to be. Not happy with this at all.

 

[LLigetfa]

Are you convinced that there are health benefits to using potassium? My wife was convinced and we used potassium for years until the price increases. We hated the taste of it and what it did to our food cooked in it so we then got an RO filter for our drinking and cooking water. At that point there were no longer as many "health benefits" since the RO was filtering it out anyway as it would to filter out the sodium. I did a lot of research on the differences and switched over to salt a few years ago and am very happy with using salt.

Just something to consider. Does the water company sell you the potassium?

 

[Reach4]

How can I figure out if I'm actually only having two regens/mo or is there a way to figure out how much water we are actually using? .

Do you see the Capacity (Gallons) indication? Keep an eye on it. That should decrease daily until there is a regen. That way you can tell how frequent the regens are.

 

[jayinct]

Are you convinced that there are health benefits to using potassium? My wife was convinced and we used potassium for years until the price increases. We hated the taste of it and what it did to our food cooked in it so we then got an RO filter for our drinking and cooking water. At that point there were no longer as many "health benefits" since the RO was filtering it out anyway as it would to filter out the sodium. I did a lot of research on the differences and switched over to salt a few years ago and am very happy with using salt.

Just something to consider. Does the water company sell you the potassium?

I'm buying my potassium at lowes for 26.97 a bag (40 lbs) . It's a killer especially since having this issue with my new softener so am definitely considering the switch. I just need to figure out what the h* is going on with my new softener first.

 

[jayinct]

Do you see the Capacity (Gallons) indication? Keep an eye on it. That should decrease daily until there is a regen. That way you can tell how frequent the regens are.

Ok, great. I'm going to check on that right now to see where it's at. I'm determined to figure this out. Can the water be too soft? It sure feels that way. Definitely not the same as our old softener which always tested fine. Is it possible that there is much more potassium being dissolved per gallon?

 

[Reach4]

I think you should consider that with 8 grains/gallon softened with resin regenerated with sodium chloride, you would be adding about 157 milligrams of sodium per gallon of tap water (revised number). Figure how much tap water you drink or cook with per day. 1 gallon would be above average. Most people take in over 3000 mg of sodium per day. 2000 would be low sodium.

Look at daily salt intake. You will find the sodium in the water would minor if you switched to sodium chloride at $4 to $5 per bag.

Some people have the cold water to the kitchen sink not softened, so drinking that water would not have sodium from softening.

 

[jayinct]

I think you should consider that with 8 grains/gallon softened with resin regenerated with sodium chloride, you would be adding (very) roughly 100 milligrams of sodium per gallon of tap water. Figure how much tap water you drink or cook with per day. 1 gallon would be above average. Most people take in over 3000 mg of sodium per day. 2000 would be low sodium.

Look at daily salt intake. You will find the sodium in the water would minor if you switched to sodium chloride at $4 to $5 per bag.

Switching is definitely sounding better and better. I just hesitate doing it now until I figure out what's going on with this new softener. I wonder if it's defective. Will there have to be any adjustment if I do decide to switch to salt?

 

[Reach4]

Switching is definitely sounding better and better. I just hesitate doing it now until I figure out what's going on with this new softener. I wonder if it's defective. Will there have to be any adjustment if I do decide to switch to salt?

You will move the last two pins closer to the others. The math will be easier with sodium chloride. I am thinking that with your 1 cubic foot of resin, you will want 6 pounds of NaCl salt (2 gallons of refill water). Thus 2 empty holes before the last two pegs. With KCl, I would take a guess that 3 or 4 holes might be sufficient, but Bannerman figured out that you have 6 holes before the last two pegs currently. If you switched from 6 to 3, that would cut your KCl use in half. You could monitor softness to see if you are getting hardness bleed through at the end of the period.

While you are thinking about it , start watching the Capacity (Gallons) to see how frequent the regenerations are.

 

[LLigetfa]

I'm buying my potassium at lowes for 26.97 a bag (40 lbs) ...

WOW! I am buying Morton® Rust Remover Pellets at Menard's for under $5 a bag on sale.