Educating the Higher End Client of what to look for in High End Linear Drains

[JohnfrWhipple]

Vegas I have never used anything other than water and soap to clean my shower drain installs. Roberto is trying out some options and is on to some good leads.

The Electropolished Finish on the ACO drain is all ready shinny. Not like the Schluter, Laticrete, Noble Company or the Proline drains.

When picking drains it is important to pick a drain that does not catch a lot of hair. The drains by Schluter and My Shower Grate Shop have the most surface area of little tabs and feet and I think these two drains are the worst two.

Every little tab or bump out. Ever set screw. All catch hair.

Cleaning these drains and catching hair is nice. The ACO hair catcher rocks and I'm told fits the Kerdi Line Drain. The Kerdi hair catcher is made out of plastic for some reason and can easily break.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Kerdi Grate going in. Like the My Shower Grate Shop drain it too suffers from multiple hair catching tabs.



That is a Kerdi Line Drain. You can see the installers confidence in the Kerdi membrane in this photo. You tile boys will get that joke. For those of you not in the industry the tile installer on this job used Aquadefence over top. That is the dark green material.

I did manage to get the rust of this drain.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Eurob]

Have you guys tried a good automotive car wax to protect the interior of these drains?

I've polished plenty of brushed 304 stainless with cutting compounds, and buffing wheels. Eventually they'll shine to a mirror finish. Wax works great to keep the parts looking good. Except for race car exhausts, which turn black in 10 minutes of running time. LOL

Vegas , once the drain is installed , there is extremely hard to polish it to a mirror finish , without getting the residue on the tile , grout , hard corners to reach , etc . If you do the polishing before its installation , the residue can go on the fleece of the membrane attached to the SS , unless protected -- remember , the more foreign residue is present on the fleece , the more the bond breaker '' rule ''will apply . The time spend on polishing the brushed SS can be passed on to the client -- don't think so -- , but it will just be easier to have it in a better finish -- electropolished -- from the beginning .

I was looking for a cleaner and protector type of product . I would like to have a protector product applied on the finish of the linear channel ..... you guessed right -- less maintenance and protection -- .

When the protector product is applied on , the water stains have a different form -- smaller size -- and it cleans with no effort at all -- no cleaning product necessary , just buffing -- .

I didn't try the automotive car wax , but I think it is for painted -- clear coated -- surfaces . The tests take time and are done in between the working hours -- free time -- , without any monetary revenue , not like the rest of the laboratory tests . I will keep updating when tests are performed and a better product is found .

 

[ShowerDude]

Keep it up John/Roberto..... Good real world hands on knowledge can be gained here...IMO

Had a bummer of a time w/laticrete tech support this past month.

Got conflicting response from the same tech person.

Requested a callback crom arthur minte.. He never responded to me, rather had his minions do it.

Bummed out.

 

[Eurob]

Had a bummer of a time w/laticrete tech support this past month.

Got conflicting response from the same tech person.

Bummed out.

If I may ........ a problem related or specific technical document .

You got me curious

 

[ShowerDude]

If I may ........ a problem related or specific technical document .

You got me curious

Really love laticrete......this is surely the first issue ive ever had with their great tech support.

I was told 2 different things from the tech team , conflicting info from them.

I guess my mistake....I did not write down names of who i spoke to, nor did I record the conversation to prove my point!

A product, given/gifted to me as a trial from my local rep, was used and became problematic.

I like and use a lot of CBP "Pro-lite" for meduim bed and large porcelain, ive had a great track record with this as my go to medium bed (and is almost the only CBP product i endorse).

I was given 255 multi max to try as a direct comparison. which was real nice and a great gift from laticrete.

255 unlike pro-lite is not to be used in a submerged application.........I learned hard about latex leaching.

after getting conflicting info from tech support I contacted my local rep who said he would talk to Arhtur Minte, Arther never returned my email or call (EDIT he was on vacation, i said OK ill wait to hear from him) but he did have one of the same guys that already gave me bad info call me a second time. the same tech guy?.

Never heard from arthur. I guess hes to hi up the feed chain for the tile contractor.?

I will say, i stick with laticrete, and can understand mistakes ( i make em all the time). Its just the way in which these vendors approach tech support.

It is my opinion that they first and foremost are out to cover their company bottom line rather than actually help the little guy the tile guy.

never again 255. they wont explain why it leaches or what chemical is problematic? kevlar? THATS A SECRET!!!

( EDIT oesnt Pro lite too have a latex modifier in their medium bed? )

I simply was handed 2 bags of mud, told to try it against pro lite and did so. My fault.

The new game in the industry is guaranty. If you only use our products ONLY we will mislead you with the Wrrty. oops we dont make every product you will need to finish the job in every situation, but we still want you to only use our products ( EDIT : and then we will tell you which other MFG to use in place of the product we dont make!). Wrrty.??? we have never paid out on one but we will give you the little guy a written guaranty in our literature. Good luck suing us or being smarter than our scientests and lab techs and legal teams.


I think more tile guys should speak up of their failure experiences.

latex leaching is real and I have never had a problem with it EVER. until 255 multi max. MY FAULT I KNOW.

 

[ShowerDude]

My current shower build is Another nobleTS weep pan. Ardex 8+9 waterproofing and some mapei rapid....

ill be flood testing this hybrid as all my others. I have confidence and yes im mixing some mfg. yet again......

The dream"The warranty"

 

[Eurob]

Sorry to hear about it , RSCB .

I would never guess you would have problems with the 255 . Submerged application ? -- I guess you didn't mean a shower , right ?

If you mix mfgs , you are basically on your own . Been there , done that ........... using the same mfg doesn't save you , anyways ........... warranties are a joke , period . Besides , this is the first time we hear about it , not being able to process the test properly -- not having a full bag of the in question product -- , give as samples -- powder is not sufficient , we need a large solid sample -- , and on and on and on . And then , if you would read an issued warranty , you would not understand half of it -- unrelated to the problem at hand -- .


The renegades of the industry ..... John , Roberto and RSCB ...... the 3 Musketeers which question the mfgs ...... how dare you ? The facts remain ........ 255 leach latex ........ GR is not drying .......... epoxy color grout spotting ......... I better stop before the tile police intervenes -- read the mfg instructions , watch the mixing procedures , check the full moon ..... oooops , I shouldn't do that .


I had a friend contractor which was using the Pro-lite almost on every job . Never hear a complaint about it ....... but then again , I was and still use the Ultralight with no issues so far . The delicate balance of products is in your hands .

 

[ShowerDude]

[QUOTE="eurob, post: 432219, member: 55823"Sorry to hear about it , RSCB .

I would never guess you would have problems with the 255 . Submerged application ? -- I guess you didn't mean a shower , right ?

LOL ! lets clarify submerged, Knowing that laticrete is a leader in pool waterproofing, Im thinking it makes sense to put 2 and 2 together? sumberged = underwater ? fish live in submerged water NO? I am pretty sure a shower if built proper and draining at the proper rate, is getting pelted and rained on usually daily, I doesnt mean submerged to me.? Im crazy I know.

If you mix mfgs , you are basically on your own . Been there , done that ........... using the same mfg doesn't save you , anyways ........... warranties are a joke , period . Besides , this is the first time we hear about it , not being able to process the test properly -- not having a full bag of the in question product -- , give as samples -- powder is not sufficient , we need a large solid sample -- , and on and on and on . And then , if you would read an issued warranty , you would not understand half of it -- unrelated to the problem at hand -- .

IMO laticretes pdf should read very clearly. DO NOT use 255 in a steam shower PERIOD and all their field reps should be well versed in this point. In my common sense vacuum i live in... A steam shower is not submerged , but rather introduced to Hydrostatic pressure and steam vapour that WILL get thru sanded grout and 3coats of the best solvent based sealers and can push some latex back out via pressure NOT because its underwater like a submerged pool mind you.!!!

Lets be clear.

Further more let it be known here and now THE ONLY mortar laticrete allows in a steam shower is 254. Even if you are setting large format heavy porcelain and want a medium bed.


The renegades of the industry ..... John , Roberto and RSCB ...... the 3 Musketeers which question the mfgs ...... how dare you ? The facts remain ........ 255 leach latex ........ GR is not drying .......... epoxy color grout spotting ......... I better stop before the tile police intervenes -- read the mfg instructions , watch the mixing procedures , check the full moon ..... oooops , I shouldn't do that .

The MFG in this industry are big buisness ran and run like big corporate sales efforts with a team of legal advisers, paid test labs. Much like the police state we are becoming right before our eyes. The have nots cannot fight big business while keeping their mini business afloat and they know that. If I had to tear out this steam shower it would sink my business immediately. And yes I would do it and rebuild it even if it sank me these clients are now like family and being extremely cool and understanding.

Note to self: EPOXY grout from here on out. ( steamers that is)

We all need to think of how fair the playing field is with the tiny tile contractor and the MFG. If a corporate MFG has a bad few years they just fold up shop file for bankruptcy and navigate the loopholes in the system ( that are.. guess what already there and paved a clear path by the previous other corporate sales efforts and their lobbying efforts..Whats that mean?? and usually achieved with others money) they can now start over without losing any sleep by keeping it seperate from any one persons name and conciense.. WE the tile guy working in the clients home with personal relations do and will carry the brunt in the end.


I srewed up. Sleep well laticrete, maybe work on your product literature when you wake up.




I had a friend contractor which was using the Pro-lite almost on every job . Never hear a complaint about it ....... but then again , I was and still use the Ultralight with no issues so far . The delicate balance of products is in your hands ./QUOTE]

 

[Eurob]

Without getting into any ranting comments , RSCB , I would look into their explanation of where water is forming on a steam shower application . I think Laticrete has the exposed area of tile as where the water vapor gets back into the water drops . MY shower has the same water forming -- not a steamer -- on the ceiling tile , with proper fan working and enough breathing space above the glass door .

I am not sure if your shower is considered a commercial steamer -- 24 h runs -- , but in a residential steamer I don't think you can get to a point where you have a dangerous % of water present in the mortar . Talking about the latex leaching -- did you use a premixed version of 255 -- ? LOL .

Sorry , I know is not funny ........ I think they -- Laticrete -- should look into the issue and help you out . There is no such a thing as submerged application in a steamer . There is also no bending in interpretation of what a submerged application is ........... I could also say that if a steamer is considered a submerged application , then John is right in complaining about the "S'' niches -- not being waterproofed -- . I would also not start the mods vs. unmods debate , where the unmods are the worse mortar to be used for a submerged application .

These will also reflect the hard work is done by pros in dealing with the so much -- alarming -- changes in recommendations , literature contents , reversing interpretations and so on ........ besides the real work -- hands on installations -- .

Note to self: EPOXY grout from here on out. ( steamers that is)

I've always considered the epoxy as primary grout to use in showers , light color grout applications , ........ I could say it is my first choice .

Did you use the Permacolor grout as well in the steamer ?

Was there enough time allocated for the mortar to properly set ? What was the sandwich made of -- mortar trapped in between -- ?

Do you have the problem present only on the ceiling ?

 

[Eurob]

Further more let it be known here and now THE ONLY mortar laticrete allows in a steam shower is 254. Even if you are setting large format heavy porcelain and want a medium bed.

If I may add , the 255 , as well as 4XLT is recommended for exterior tile installations . As long as exterior conditions are uncontrollable -- possible '' submerging '' -- , then recommending them is out of the question , especially on a zone 5.

Still wondering who is allowing them to be recommended for such applications . Don't forget , the stars have to be aligned for them to work in these applications .

 

[DonL]

OH man... just keep me away from the firewater......

I hope John feels welcome here and comes back.

He is very good at what he does. all pipes aside. Sharing is good.

I just wish he would leave Bashing up to his Unix Machine.

That works for me. I wear A white hat, for the most part.

Enjoy.

 

[Jadnashua]

If you believe the tests and studies the TCNA and others have done regarding latex modified mortars, regardless of whether that they can re-emulsify or not, they can be washed away if they haven't fully dried the first time and the testing and recommendations say 7-14-days OR LONGER. Some tests by Schluter have shown under large porcelain tile, that hadn't happened in 60-days. A waterproof membrane and an impervious tile CAN be problematic unless you can allow enough time for things to both dry and cure. There are other modifiers that will not be affected by moisture and not washed away in a submerged situation. Essentially, the modifiers are between the cement crystals, and wash the modifier away, the crystals will not be interlocking in tight contact with each other, and you're likely to just have their tips, which are fragile, and thus break off into what would look like essentially fine grains of sand...not holding anything together.

 

[ShowerDude]

If I may add , the 255 , as well as 4XLT is recommended for exterior tile installations . As long as exterior conditions are uncontrollable -- possible '' submerging '' -- , then recommending them is out of the question , especially on a zone 5.

Still wondering who is allowing them to be recommended for such applications . Don't forget , the stars have to be aligned for them to work in these applications .

The wind was @ .03 knots westerly, the mortar paddle of A stainless or zink metal, humidity 72 %, all product date codes checked, fresh cool water, new buckets !!!! mix/slake/mix. 2 rubs on the rabbit tail and a quick note to allah. I LOSE!!!!!

The Glass is frameless and A tight 4" Transom for release. We just added a secondary Hi output exhaust fan to the equation....

The grout another concern. TEC 650 installed to spec after tiles set for over 2 weeks. Grout dry time 2 weeks per TEC spec.

Sealer Miracle 511 3 coats after grout cleaned and dried once more.

If I had to guess The last tile was set with 255 and introduced to steam shower use well over 25 days. This may have been the cause if a forensic tile expert like Jim inspected things !!! Re emulsify is a scary phrase, one used in the glue and mastic world.....NOT Top of line medium bed Mortars...

I am told NOW By Laticrete it is not their advice to use 255 in A steam shower, but in A low use residential application , they are suprised it could happen. ( This a different response from my initial inquiry)

The leaching by the way very small and minor, in only a few areas on some of the last tiles set. NOT the ceiling. and the shower has just been extensively cleaned and maintained and dryed out for over a month just now. Grout stripped of sealer, sulfamic acid washed followed by water rinses and another dehumidifying dry cycle.
Again with 3 solid coats of 511. and we shall see.
( FYI. all of these cleaning/maint. products I just used were cross verified with TEC, CBP, LATICRETE, and Miracle. since no 1 of these outfits mfg. a full line of products as they claim....???? cover my ass.



Its in service again and functioning well. I will be checking in on it next few weeks.

Enough said. !

Thanks for your input... Learning experience.

 

[Jadnashua]

after getting conflicting info from tech support I contacted my local rep who said he would talk to Arhtur Minte, Arther never returned my email or call (EDIT he was on vacation, i said OK ill wait to hear from him) but he did have one of the same guys that already gave me bad info call me a second time. the same tech guy?.

Never heard from arthur. I guess hes to hi up the feed chain for the tile contractor.?

I will say, i stick with laticrete, and can understand mistakes ( i make em all the time). Its just the way in which these vendors approach tech support.

It is my opinion that they first and foremost are out to cover their company bottom line rather than actually help the little guy the tile guy.

never again 255. they wont explain why it leaches or what chemical is problematic? kevlar? THATS A SECRET!!!

In the time it took to call them, you could have looked at the material datasheet which specifically says not for submerged applications http://www.laticrete.com/Portals/0/datasheets/lds2550.pdf
Not all modifiers are created the same...that's one reason why there are lots of different mortars out there, even from the same manufacturer...they actually do know how they work, and do test them, some tech support operatives excepted! The printed documentation is usually more accurate and less ambiguous.

 

[DonL]

Again wev'e hijacked and sidetracked Johns intended point to this post.....sorry John, Roberto got me goin..!!

John got me going for a bit.

Join the crowd.

I can not believe John broke up with me. lol

 

[ShowerDude]

My bad RSCB , the sidetrack is over now ............. thanks for the sharing moments !

Sharing .... Exactly.

Sharing actual hands on triumphs and failures.

I believe this can help others even if its my own failure Im showcasing.

I have built quite a few showers and more pans than i care to remember. Id say 10 this year alone.

I make mistakes , and sometimes i put my trust and faith in my industry reps.

This latest rant i think will help someone.

not meant to bash laticrete or invite some retired jerk to insult me when im down&out.

This jerk i speak of is much like the book trained tech support people we are suppose to take advice from.

Never built anything nor could he.

What a loser of a person.

 

[Jadnashua]

Isn't it interesting that people that I've never met, seem to know my whole life's story...sorry about that, you're wrong, and you know what they say about assumptions! But, the datasheet for Laticrete 255 specifically states "Not for submerged applications". All you need for that is some basic reading comprehension...and, some belief in the integrity of the company that said it about their product.

 

[ShowerDude]

John got me going for a bit.

Join the crowd.

I can not believe John broke up with me. lol

well Don...

You were talkin pretty tough with whipple for a spell?

Dont know the why of it...

I suspect you feel bad about it tho!!! Which means

you have a good concience intact. So theres that.

The poster in your corner is not worth protecting IMO.


But you can still join in my group hug!

 

[DonL]

well Don...

You were talkin pretty tough with whipple for a spell?

Dont know the why of it...

I suspect you feel bad about it tho!!! Which means

you have a good concience intact. So theres that.

The poster in your corner is not worth protecting IMO.


But you can still join in my group hug!

I am glad to see John back. Thank you John, You did the right thing. And You are the best.

You may be right counterbalance, Not that I am protecting anyone, I would do the same for anyone, Getting Bashed on every post.

I am a bit strange like that.

I treat people the way I like to be treated, and it works for me.

The work you guys do is way over my head, But I can tell it is a work of art.


Keep up the Good work.


73