Pumping from creek pool to storage tank

[Guy2014]

I'm preparing to install a new water system on unimproved property. I will be pumping from a 4 foot deep year round pool to a 1200 gal storage tank. The tank is 130 feet above the creek and the run is 7oo feet. The house will be 30 feet above the creek (100 feet below the tank). We plan to use gravity feed to the house and water spigots here and there along the run of pipe. I plan to use 160 psi 1 1/4 poly pipe. 1 bedroom, 1 bath house with light garden irrigation.

Questions

1) If I fill the tank from the bottom using the pipe run from the pump, can I use that same pipe for supply to the home and for the spigots along the pipe route? This saves 700 feet of pipe if I were instead fill the tank from the top and drain from the bottom. I suspect the pressure in the pipe will be higher when the pump is on which I think I can control by use of a pressure regulator at the house. Variable pressure at the spigots is unimportant, I think.

2) Is 1 1/4 poly pipe sufficient for this project?

3) I want to install a submersible pump housed in a short section of plastic well casing fixed into the pool. My plan is to install the well casing at a 45 degree angle from vertical to make sure the pump inlet is always in water.

Can submersible pumps be operated when not vertical? If not, I guess I need a pump with a bottom inlet. Seems like most pumps I've seen have inlets in the middle of the pump.

Will I need to some how center the pump in the casing? If so, recommendations?

Will torque be a problem?

4) How can I control the pump to maintain the desired level of water in the tank when filling from the bottom?

5) Would this system benefit from a CSV valve? If so, where in the system should it be installed?

Other suggestions?

Thanks so much..

 

[Reach4]

1 A little higher while running, but not much.
2 Max PSI with the pump not running will be about 56 PSI. So I think you would be fine with that.
3 Yes. They can even be horizontal with most pumps. See https://terrylove.com/forums/index....e-pump-inducer-sleeve-help.55949/#post-411162 for a diagram I think was copied out of the Franklin AIM manual. It shows using bolts to center the pump.
4 You will use a float switch system in the tank. I don't know specific float switches, or if you can get a combined float switch which will have the turn on and turn off differential. I would think so.
5 I would not think so.

Not a pro.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

If you have to run the pipe all the way to the top anyway, the storage tank is not a bad idea. But you could put a CSV and small pressure tank on the pump and just run lines and use water anyway you want, and the storage tank would not be needed.

Pump at 45 degrees is no problem, and don't worry about the centering bolts in the flow inducer shroud.

If you give me the GPM from the pump you choose, I can tell you how much more pressure you will have when the storage tank is being filled.

 

[Guy2014]

If you have to run the pipe all the way to the top anyway, the storage tank is not a bad idea. But you could put a CSV and small pressure tank on the pump and just run lines and use water anyway you want, and the storage tank would not be needed.

Pump at 45 degrees is no problem, and don't worry about the centering bolts in the flow inducer shroud.

If you give me the GPM from the pump you choose, I can tell you how much more pressure you will have when the storage tank is being filled.

We live in the wooded boonies and it is not uncommon for the power to be off, sometimes for days. Most folks around here prefer a storage tank for those times. Folks without tanks wish they had them. Still, it would be much easier to do what you suggest...

As to the GPM, I haven't chosen a pump yet, but I was going to target somewhere around 5 GPM at the tank. As to the pump choice, how would I determine the head loss in 700 ft of 1 1/4 inch tubing?

Flow inducer - I intend to house the pump inside a short piece of well casing. Would I still need an inducer in that situation? Also, any recommendations on the ID of the casing relative to the pump OD?

Your advice is most appreciated!

 

[DonL]

Deleted Post.

 

[Valveman]

At 5 GPM there is basically no friction loss in 1 1/4" pipe. Just figure the elevation as lift.

The elevated storage tank is a good idea if your power goes off for days.

The well casing will work as a flow inducer as long as the water comes into the casing from below the motor. 4" casing is all you need and actually cools the motor better than larger casing.

 

[Guy2014]

At 5 GPM there is basically no friction loss in 1 1/4" pipe. Just figure the elevation as lift.

The elevated storage tank is a good idea if your power goes off for days.

The well casing will work as a flow inducer as long as the water comes into the casing from below the motor. 4" casing is all you need and actually cools the motor better than larger casing.

So, at 5 gpm , what increase in pressure 100 feet below the tank can I expect?

 

[Reach4]

http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/pipe-and-tube-pressure-loss-tables/
or http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pressure-loss-plastic-pipes-d_404.html

100ft, 1-1/4 pipe: So about 20 PSI at the pump due to the flow (if pipe goes straight up), and 43 psi due to the static pressure. Half way up, each would be about half as much.

If the pipe rises at 45 degrees, that would take 141 feet of pipe, so the 20 becomes about 28 PSI.

 

[Valveman]

He said 700' of pipe. And that chart says 0.2 PSI loss per 100'. So that is only 1.4 PSI friction loss.

The lift from the creek to the tank is 130' in elevation, which is the same as 56 PSI.

Add the 1.4 to the 56 for a total pressure the pump must build at flow of 57.4 PSI, which is the same as 127.5 feet of lift.

 

[Guy2014]

He said 700' of pipe. And that chart says 0.2 PSI loss per 100'. So that is only 1.4 PSI friction loss.

The lift from the creek to the tank is 130' in elevation, which is the same as 56 PSI.

Add the 1.4 to the 56 for a total pressure the pump must build at flow of 57.4 PSI, which is the same as 127.5 feet of lift.

So, 57.4 PSI is required for the flow to start. In terms of pump selection, when I look at 5 GPM graph for a 1/2 HP Franklin Pump, the graph shows flow rate vs height. The flow rate starts at 8 GPM at 150 feet, then proceeds to 1 GPM at 300 feet. So, I presume I would get slightly better than 8 GPM at my 130 feet from this pump. Am I correct? If so, why is this considered a 5 GPM pump?

 

[DonL]

If so, why is this considered a 5 GPM pump?

It could because they rate their pumps for what 1/2 horse power can REALLY do. ?

Do not let big numbers confuse you.


Good Luck.

 

[Valveman]

5 GPM is just the optimum flow rate for that pump. It will safely work from as little as 1 GPM at 380’ of head, to as much as 7.5 GPM at 130’ of head. If you pump less than 1 GPM the pump/motor will overheat. If you let it pump more than 7.5 GPM the impellers will be destroyed from upthrust.

I am very familiar with this because that is how a CSV works with a pump. The CSV makes the pump think it is in a 380’ deep well when you are only using 1 GPM, and makes the pump think it is only in a 130’ deep well when you need 7.5 GPM.

130’ of head is the minimum you want on that pump. If you don’t have that much head just put a ball valve on the discharge and make the pump think it is in its sweet spot.

 

[DonL]

If you go with a 1/2 HP 120V Pump, You can run it on a 2000W generator to fill your tank when the power fails.

When you do the math don't forget water temperature and barometric pressure.


Good Luck on your project.

 

[Guy2014]

If you go with a 1/2 HP 120V Pump, You can run it on a 2000W generator to fill your tank when the power fails.

When you do the math don't forget water temperature and barometric pressure.


Good Luck on your project.

Yup, already have the generator and will have a circuit in the house to connect it to.

 

[DonL]

Yup, already have the generator and will have a circuit in the house to connect it to.

Sounds like you did your homework.

Very cool.


Have Fun.