are US toilet makers asleep?

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Edwardh1

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Made a tour of relatives houses this week , stayed a few nites with each.
1. son has a mid 90s mc mansion house - it has kohler toilers with a round bowl water outlet that clogs over 1/2 the time , his house has 5 of them - he hates them.

2. motel had a crane, had an odd inner bowl skirt from the top of the bowl down about 5 inches, all of which was unwashed by water when you flushed it.

3. brother in law had two eljer about 7 years old a cheap looking thing, that the flapper was slightly pulled off alignment by the lever and chain that raises the flapper. lots of apparent slop/misalignment in the flapper part and in the fixed ears that locate the flapper. Maybe it came in a box and someone put it together wrong.
 

Jadnashua

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I think that some of it is our throw-away society, and the fact that people tend to look more at the price than the quality. That isn't to say that a quality toilet costs much more than a not so great one, but as more and more people look at the earnings per share, rather than taking the long term build of quality and market share...anything you can to do to eke out a bit more profit seems to be the way they go verse building a better product and maybe get the market as people get fed up with mediocrity. It also seems that most (all?) of the US manufacturers are living more on their names than their current quality would suggest. Eventually, people may wake up.

There are toilets that rarely get plugged and have good bowl wash.
 

Gary Swart

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Welcome to the forum! If you had been a frequent visitor, you would know that the brands you name, and others, are not favorites with most plumbers that post here often. Most of these you list have well known names, but the original companies have either sold out to foreign companies or have moved production to third world countries, but when they moved, they left quality control behind. There is one company, although Japanese owned, manufactures many of their line in the United States. Toto is the world's largest manufacturer of toilets and none of their toilets have the problems you mentioned. So, no the US makers are not asleep, they live elsewhere.
 

WJcandee

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Well, Ed, if your son has a nice home, I'm hopeful that this means that he may be able to afford a few new toilets -- as you know, between $200 and $350 picks up quite a few nice-looking Totos, all of which will flush very, very well. What we did was to start with one Toto Drake, a basic workhorse model that looks nice, as we had been burned by an expensive low-flow Kohler that looked great and flushed horribly. Once we saw how well the Drake was made and how well it worked, we ordered two more Totos.

And in the interest of full disclosure and honesty, I think that I have to report that the particular model of Glacier Bay two-piece that my friend-with-the-bar's handyman put into her restrooms has performed exceptionally well now for several months, and cost a little more than $100 at HD. The problem, of course, is that just because one random Chinese toilet that is sold under that brand name for three months is good, it doesn't mean that the "replacement" for it will work. It's been a few months so I don't even know if they are selling that model anymore. Which is the problem. And good luck finding parts...

But what is certain is that if you go find a Toto that you like the looks of, you won't be disappointed by the performance. The entry-level Original Drakes and new Entrada look nice and work well.

(Edited because I just couldn't get that first sentence to sound the way I mean it... Sorry if it sounded anything other than nice...)
 
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Terry

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In the mid 90's there wasn't much regulation on how well anything had to work. If they could sell it, they did.
The current EPA regs require a flush that handles at least 250 grams to get the watersense label. Except now that I say that, I can no longer find the spec on the EPA web site.

I will say that there were a few bowls from the mid 90's that were at 125 grams and quite a few that were below 200 grams.
Many new toilets are rated at 500 grams and more.
 

Edwardh1

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thanks Terry, many places seem to use the toto even businesses/cafes etc.
if you came across the water sense cert post it maybe < I will look too, thats whats needed, a performance standard.
 

Edwardh1

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maybe this but I dont have that spec
from watersense web site
depending upon
whether it can successfully and completely clear
all test media from the fixture in
a single flush in at least four of five attempts. Flush performance testing shall be
conducted in accordance with the waste extraction test protocol provided in
ASME A112.19.2/CSA B45.1
 

Gary Swart

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MaP scores are a lot like horsepower ratings for automobiles. Sure, you have to have some, but there is a point where they become meaningless. If you want a toilet that flushes consistently well, good bowl wash, and high quality, look at the Toto line. If you want a cheap toilet, go to Home Cheapo, they have plenty of them.
 

Jadnashua

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Personally, I'd want a toilet that worked more often than 4 out of 5 times! THen, consider what they're flushing at that test sequence.
 

Gary Swart

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Yeah, 4 out of 5 would be a good baseball batting average, but for a toilet, that would amount to at least one clog per day. I have had 2 Toto for about 4 years. To date, zero clogs.
 

Reach4

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The way I read that was that up to 1 out of 5 could require a second flush to clear out the test load.
 

hj

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In the past 60+ years I have installed about SIX Toto toilets and I only furnished two of them. The toilets I DO use flush "perfectly" and the customers have NEVER called back to complain about stoppages.
 

Terry

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In the past 60+ years I have installed about SIX Toto toilets and I only furnished two of them. The toilets I DO use flush "perfectly" and the customers have NEVER called back to complain about stoppages.

Geez, we do six TOTO installs a day.
 
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Wallijonn

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1. Tell your son to join this forum.
2. Motels are notorious for using low quality parts and maintaining them (like not pulling hair from the shower or bathtub drains regularly).
3. Not all Eljers were bad. Too bad that they got bought out by American Standard. At work we have two 15" high elongated 1.28g Eljers that I would gladly trade my Totos for. They have a very short inverted "U" trap way. Flushes like a dream. Our Maintenance guy has them set for about 0.8 gpf and they work great. Too bad that they are no longer made. A.S. really screwed up by not continuing to produce it - it would have given the Toto Drake a run for its money. (Maybe someday I'll post a picture of the bowl and trap way...) Guess they didn't want people getting a great value...

Your (rhetorical) Eljers were in bad shape because they were probably used a lot and abused by the users and someone cheapened out on replacement parts. Like all toilets, you should buy the best replacement parts available, not the cheapest piece of plastic junk at HD and Lowes'. If I had those Eljers I'd be swapping in Toto flush and filler valves; and I'd probably be installing $30 handle assemblies instead of the usual $3 parts available at Walmart, Target, Costco, HD and Lowes' (Ace Hardware many times have better quality parts - but many times they are still not good enough, imo. But even the best parts can't make a lousy toilet work better.)
 

Terry

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It's funny you mention certain Eljer bowl designs that are no longer made.

In February 2008, American Standard Americas merged with two other plumbing fixture companies, Crane Plumbing and Eljer to create American Standard Brands.

PISCATAWAY, N.J. - Oct. 31, 2007 - American Standard Companies Inc. (NYSE:ASD) today announced completion of the sale of its global Bath and Kitchen products business to funds advised by Bain Capital Partners, LLC, a leading private investment firm, for $1.745 billion including closing adjustments. A definitive sales agreement had been announced on July 23, 2007

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bain_Capital

Bain Capital is involved in a lot of businesses. Including HD Supply which is the builder divison of Home Depot.
 
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Asktom

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Many manufacturers get sucked into the Big Box big buck trap. They feel if they can get into the orange crate they are on gravy street. Of course to get in they have to pare their prices, but figure the increased volume makes it worthwhile. So, they get in and are off and running, but to meet the necessary quantity of gizmos required they need to expand their facilities, bumping up overhead, but volume justifies it. This works for a while, then the orange crate says, "You know those $2.00 gizmos, we are only going to pay $1.50 for them from now one". What can the manufacture do? He either starts using a cheaper giz or a cheaper mo or folds up shop. Add to this legislation (however well intentioned, and perhaps appropriate in the long run) that is more advanced than the engineering required to make the gizmo work and things get junky.

Meanwhile box shoppers are focused on price and surface trendiness. They think cheap prices and are the deal maker. I once saw a sign that said, "We offer the best quality, the best prices and the best service - pick any two". The orange crates of the world have about knocked that back to just "the best price".
 

Caduceus

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So Home Cheapo sells crap toilets and other big box stores also suck manufacturers into producing garbage products? So Toto is just like all of the others and don't buy their cheap big box store crap either from Home Depot.
Got it.
 
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