Softener sizing and installation questions

[Gary Slusser]

About under the sink picture... I know that is not an air cap, is the black part a check valve? You sure don't want a check valve to block closed.

Is the drain line 5/8" OD or smaller, it looks small from here. And if it is not at least 5/8" OD, it is too small and should be replaced.

 

[Nezil]

About under the sink picture... I know that is not an air cap, is the black part a check valve? You sure don't want a check valve to block closed.

Is the drain line 5/8" OD or smaller, it looks small from here. And if it is not at least 5/8" OD, it is too small and should be replaced.

The image under the sink shows neither an air gap, nor a check valve, it's just a rubber coupling. The only thing I was able to do at this point was a high loop. The loop is obviously not higher than the sink, but it is higher than the toilet which joins the drain immediately below the sink.

I was considering installing a check valve either close to the softener, or close to the drain; either location would be possible. I take your point about not wanting a check valve to block, but isn't a check valve better than nothing preventing back flow?

The drain line pipe is 5/8" OD.

I'm still hoping to hear advice on softener settings.

I've also noticed that the backwash cycle is really noisy. I think this might be caused by my 95psi water pressure against the DLFR restricter (3.5gpm). Is 95psi ridiculously high?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ditttohead]

UPC states that the maximum pressure allowed is 80 PSI, you need to get a pressure reducer installed.

 

[Nezil]

There obviously is a pressure reducer installed somewhere... The pressure gauge on the fire sprinkler system reads 125 PSI, so the line pressure must be higher than my domestic feed. I guess I need to find that reducer and either replace it, or adjust it to bring things in line.

Would 80 be the right point to adjust to?

I'm concerned that we've grown accustomed to a certain flow in the showers, and reducing the pressure might affect this. I do realise that pressure and flow are not the same thing, but wondered if I am likely to notice if I change this.

Also... should I be concerned about the pressure being 95 PSI? In other words, should I be fixing this as a priority, or just to quieten down the back wash?

 

[Reach4]

60 or 65 PSI would be better IMO. It will be less stress on hoses for washer or flex lines to toilets.

 

[Nezil]

60 or 65 PSI would be better IMO. It will be less stress on hoses for washer or flex lines to toilets.

And you don't think I'll notice the change in pressure at the faucet?

 

[Reach4]

Newer faucets have flow control regulators. http://www.neoperl.net/en/oem/products/aerators/pressurecompensating.html The flow control buttons in your softener do that too. I have my well pump cut on at 35 PSI and off at 55. I don't notice the difference.

It could make a difference when using your hose outside. If you want more pressure later for some reason, you can crank the regulator back up.

With a city water pressure regulator, you need a pressure tank to compensate for hot water expanding. You probably already have one.

 

[Nezil]

I've not seen any pressure tank with my water heater, and I think I've looked everywhere that one would be in my home.

Are you saying that if there is a pressure regulator currently installed, there should already be a pressure tank for the hot water?

 

[Reach4]

Yes. The regulator usually also serves as a checkvalve, from what I have read. If the pressure gets to 160 PSI, the water heater T+P relief should release some water.

The pressure tank goes on the cold some where that has no checkvalve between it and the water heater.

Here are some threads:
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?posts/428804/
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?posts/422670/
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/water-heater-leaks-out-pressure-relief-valve.56920

 

[Nezil]

There is definitely a pressure relief on the hot water tank, but I believe this runs to the outside and I thought it never saw any action.

I'm 99% sure that I don't have one of those pressure expansion tanks anywhere in our system. It is possible that the pressure relief valve is draining to the back yard outlet quite often though of course, but I've never looked and so have probably never noticed.

This is getting complicated...

 

[Gary Slusser]

With 95psi you seriously need a main line water pressure regulator valve because overnight psi can be up to 3-4 times that. That breaks plastic stuff. I do not agree with any check valve anywhere The best thing to do is prevent clogging of your plumbing so there can not be any back flow.

 

[Nezil]

Thanks for your comments Gary.

I didn't think there was any 'plastic stuff' in the plumbing, but now that I think about it, It's probably a safe bet that there is plastic valves in several of the appliances around the home.

If it was just a case of adding a pressure regulator valve, then I'd go ahead and do that. The problem is that @Reach4 introduced the need for a pressure expansion tank for the hot water that I don't currently have. This is a new variable that I'll need to look into I think.

P.S. Gary, would you be able to comment on my Fleck 7000SXT settings in this thread: https://terrylove.com/forums/index....installed-now-for-some-setup-questions.58313/

 

[Bannerman]

Reach mentioned an expansion tank. This is typically required for installation of a check valve (back flow preventor) preventing water from flowing backwards into the city mains from within each house. Pressure regulators also commonly prevent back flow.

Without a check valve, water is permitted to flow back into the city mains but if there is bacteria contamination in one house, this can compromise the city mains and contaminate feeds to other homes. This is a particular issue if the town pressure is cut off for a time and contaminated standing water happens to be siphoned into the system through someones garden or laundry tub hose.

When a check valve is installed at the point of entry, cold water within the water heater has no place to expand to when it is heated. An expansion tank permits the heated water to expand while not flowing in reverse to the city mains or triggering the water heater temp & pressure expansion valve (T&P valve).

Many municipal systems are typically 60 lbs pressure.

Dittohead mentioned in prior threads that California has some municipal areas with excessive pressure during the day, but during the night when there is little water use, water pressures build much higher, often damaging valves, water lines and appliances.

I would suggest a pressure regulator is a safety priority for you, not just a response to noisy water softener regeneration.

Your sprinkler system may have a pump to build pressure or the gauge could be reading the highest pressure ever seen or be defective.

 

[Nezil]

The fire sprinkler system does not have a pump at all, and the gauge appears to be functional, in that the pressure reading goes down when I open the test ball valve, though it may be giving a false reading of course.

The main water line from the meter appears to go to first go to the outside wall of the house. At this point, a hose bib can be found, along with a split - one for the irrigation system (which is plastic), and another for the fire sprinkler system and the home. Both of the branches do have pressure regulators visible, but I've not tried to adjust them at all. Photo below:

Ignoring the irrigation, the branch that serves the fire sprinkler and the home then splits again. I have not seen any additional pressure reducing valves past the one in the photo above. I'm starting to think that this pressure reducing valve may not be functioning however, because I'm getting the same pressure reading (95 PSI) both at the hose bib above which is before the pressure reducing valve, and the hose bib connected after the valve.

I also think that the pressure gauge on the fire sprinkler system may be inaccurate because how can it possibly be higher than the pressure shown at the hose bib above.

Assuming that I'm correct about these two assumptions, I can replace the pressure gauge in the fire sprinkler system easily enough, as well as the pressure reducing valve shown above.

My concern now is two things:

1. Will a reduction in pressure to the fire sprinkler system be a problem?
2. Do I really need a pressure expansion tank at my hot water heater, and why wasn't there one installed previously!?!

I'm unlikely to be doing anything on the system today, but I'll leave my pressure gauge on overnight and see what the max pointer is at in the morning.

 

[Nezil]

OK, I've done a little more research, and I think I understand the current situation re. my PRV.

I noticed that the pressure at a hose bib after the PRV measures roughly 95 PSI static. This is the same as the pressure at the hose bib before the PRV.

What's strange is that adjusting the PRV appears not to make any difference to the static pressure, it always stays at 95 PSI regardless of the setting of the adjustment screw. I tried to put the adjustment screw back where I thought it was when I started, but didn't spend too much effort doing this because I thought it wouldn't make any difference anyway, since the unit appeared to have failed.

Later this evening, while giving my 3 year old a shower / bath, that the pressure did seem to be down a little; perhaps my adjustments had made a difference after all.

I looked around the 'net a little more, and found some comments saying that the PRV is faulty if the pressure shown at the hose bib drops significantly when a single faucet is fully opened. I believe the figure suggested as being acceptable was a 15 PSI drop, with 8 PSI being the performance to accept from a new unit.

When I opened a single faucet, the pressure gauge read only 40 PSI; a 55 PSI drop! I had noticed this before actually, that the pressure drops significantly whenever there is flow, and slowly builds back up again over about a 20 second period to the street pressure of 95 PSI.

Now I'm thinking that the pressure under flow function of the PRV is actually working OK, and I've now turned it down a little too far by setting it to 40 PSI by accident. It was probably set OK in fact, and the 95 PSI static reading was a red herring! The PRV has failed however, and is leaking water past the seals at rest, resulting in the elevated 95 PSI.

Obviously this still isn't good for the plumbing in my home, but at least I think I understand the problem now.

Interestingly, I measured the static pressure at several of my neighbour's houses this earlier this evening. Of the 4 I measured, 2 read 95 PSI, 1 read 80 PSI and 1 read 60 PSI... I have a feeling that almost all of the PRVs in our 10 year old development now have this fault!

The photo in my post above shows the location... I'm considering a repair kit because getting the old unit out might be tough.

 

[ditttohead]

Looking at the picture, I would recommend rebuilding the PRV. Most PRV will have a max setting of 75 PSI, (5 PSI below UPC). A properly functioning PRV should not creep up past 75, but... as stated earlier, hot water expansion can cause a creep in pressure. When water heats up, it expands, that water will cause a rise in pressure. You may want to replace the PRV and raise it off the ground too.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Your softener resin tank and control valve etc. are plastic.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

PRV's go bad and they go bad often and yours has. You can rebuild them but often the insides are so corroded that you cost and the rebuild kit is about 70 bucks.

 

[ditttohead]

Solenoid valve on the fridge, dishwasher, internals of your faucets, .... plastics.

 

[Nezil]

OK, OK, I get the message. I will be fixing the problem, I just need to work out the most cost effective way to do that.

You would recommend rebuilding rather than replace @dittohead? Costs are ~$65 and ~$210 respectively. I can't find any online information (videos or blogs) of anyone rebuilding a Watts PRV, even though kits are available.