CycleStopValve installed, had an issue...

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Whipsaw

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My new well is 208' deep, with a Franklin 2hp pump end and motor set at around 190' on pvc pipe. It provides 25+ gallons per minute. This is my first well, and I had to try to educate myself on everything. When I decided I wanted a CycleStopValve and not an expensive programmer, the pump guy pretty much said have fun so I was on my own.

After doing a lot of reading and making a decision, I bought and installed the CSV (Pside-Kick ordered directly from Texas) and ran all the plumbing. I blew out the lines and did everything by the book. Everything worked fine the first day. Then today, I was at a hose bib pumping water when I noticed it was surging and something was not right. I walked over to my pump house and the pump was short cycling on, off, on, off, on, off with the pressure switch rapidly going from 40 to 60 to 40 to 60 as it turned on and off. I immediately turned the breaker off. It upset me because my pump was very expensive and I was left thinking it could have been harmed. From the time I noticed the issue at the hose to the time I got into the pump house 100 feet away, the pump had likely turned on and off 50 times or so. That is NOT good.

After leaving it off for several minutes, I turned the breaker back on. Everything worked fine, and I had no other issues. I don't understand what the heck caused that, and I am nervous now. After the pump guy scared me telling me the CSV was going to burn the pump up, then this, I don't honestly know what to think. The valve is set at the right pressure, so I have no clue as to what is causing this. All I know is I don't want to ever see my pump doing that again.

Oh, and another thing of note: The valve fills the pressure tank almost immediately, and doesn't take the 1 minute to slowly fill it and cool the pump like I thought it was designed to do . It is like less than 10 seconds. I don't understand this.
 
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Valveman

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There are two tests you need to do to make sure a CSV is functioning properly. The first is to make sure the CSV is holding a steady 50 PSI while running a 3 GPM shower, hose, or sprinkler. The second test is to make sure it takes at least 30 seconds to fill the tank and shut off the pump, after you turn off all the faucets.

I don’t know about number one, but yours is certainly not passing test number two. We do thousands of these and occasionally we get a bad pressure tank, an incorrectly adjusted pressure switch, or a pressure gauge that doesn’t read correctly. All the CSV1A valves included with the Pside-Kick kits have been tested and set at 50 PSI. So I doubt that the CSV is the problem, but it is possible.

With the power off and the water drained out of the system, make sure the pressure tank has 35-38 PSI air charge. Make sure the CSV is holding 50 PSI constant while running 3 GPM water somewhere in the house, like a shower. Then make sure it takes at least 30 seconds to build to 60 and shut off, after you turn off all faucets.

The CSV makes a simple system, so it is also simple to diagnose any problem. My guess is that your pressure switch was not 40/60 as it should be out of the box. Probably all that is needed is a couple of turns to the right on the large adjustment screw.

50 cycles is not going to hurt your pump. 50 cycles every couple of hours for the life of the pump is a different story. However, if you are concerned adding a Cycle Sensor is a good insurance policy. You can’t always be watching your pump, but the Cycle Sensor keeps and eye on things 24/7. It will shut the pump off after one rapid cycle, or if the well is pumped dry. It is virtually impossible for a pump to be destroyed when a Cycle Stop Valve is functioning properly. But the Cycle Sensor will catch problems with the CSV, pressure switch, pressure tank, etc., before anything is destroyed.

I am sorry you are having a problem, but it is probably just a simple adjustment error. There has never been a single pump destroyed when controlled with a properly functioning CSV in nearly 22 years. Any pump man that says a CSV is destructive is just making himself look foolish. You would be reading many thousands of complaints if that were true. Yet you will be hard pressed to find a single complaint about a CSV destroying a pump. Any complaint you might find is because of a pump installer having no idea what he is doing. One in particular was a pump man installing a pump that would not even build 60 PSI, and used a 40/60 pressure switch. Of course that would burn up a pump, but it had nothing to do with the CSV.

Call me if you have any questions and I will talk you through it.
Thanks
 

Whipsaw

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I had already run the system at approx 3 gallons per minute and made sure the valve was holding 50 psi. It is almost dead on 50. Out of the box it was holding like 45 so I adjusted it like the instructions said.

The pressure switch seems to be fine because it cycles on and off at exactly 40 and 60 according to the pressure regulator.

How do I drain the water out of the system without losing air pressure at the tank to verify the 35-38 psi?
 

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Yes the CSV1A is good to 25 GPM. You will have 10 PSI less when running 25 GPM than when running 3 GPM, but you can adjust the pressure up if you want 50 PSI at 25 GPM. Just need to set the CSV at 60 (3 GPM) with a pressure switch setting of 50/70.

If you adjusted the CSV up from 45 to 50, you probably over did it. My guess is you were running more than 3 GPM when you adjusted it, so the CSV is set too high for a 40/60 pressure switch. I would suggest leaving the CSV where it is, and adjusting the large screw in the pressure switch about 3 full turns to the right to make it about 50/70.

Turing the CSV up without adjusting the pressure switch up as well is why your pump is cycling.

With the power off to the pump, any faucet will drain the water out of the tank so you can check the air pressure.
 

Whipsaw

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I had the problem before I adjusted the switch. I made the adjustment after. I didn't want to adjust it before because I know that they are set at the factory, and I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt.

I can get a 5 gallon bucket out, and make sure it is right at 3 gpm. I just guessed, but from testing the well I can pretty much tell what is 5 gpm, etc.

I'm kind of at a loss here just because the pressure regulator indicates the switch is operating perfectly, and the valve is holding the correct pressure. That's the thing, nothing was out of desired parameters when this happened.
 

Whipsaw

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Cary is the pside kick kit rated for 25 gpm? I thought you had to go with a bigger valve for that much flow.

I think it's a max 25 gpm for the csv1a, but my 2 hp pump is a 20 gpm series, so it's fine. I wouldn't be able to pump 25 gpm without a bigger pump.
 

Whipsaw

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The pressure tank is holding 34 psi after the water is gone. I checked it twice. I just used a tire gauge. It does not take anywhere close to 30 seconds to fill the tank. More like less than 10, maybe 5 seconds. I don't honestly understand why, unless maybe something inside the valve is acting up.
 

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The CSV is just set too close to the pressure switch shut off pressure. Tighten down on the large screw in the pressure switch until the pump is shutting off at 70 and on at 50.
 

Reach4

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I think it's a max 25 gpm for the csv1a, but my 2 hp pump is a 20 gpm series, so it's fine. I wouldn't be able to pump 25 gpm without a bigger pump.

FYI, 20 GPM submersible pump can pump more than 20 GPM depending on how far down the top of the water is. The attached is for a 20 HP 20 GPM Goulds pump, but others would be similar. Not to say that is your problem.
 

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Whipsaw

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The CSV is just set too close to the pressure switch shut off pressure. Tighten down on the large screw in the pressure switch until the pump is shutting off at 70 and on at 50.

I can do that, but can you explain something to a newbie like myself? If I was pumping around 8 gpm out of the hose bib (which I in fact tested with a bucket today to see what the flow rate was when this happened), and the pressure regulator reads around 45 psi at that volume, how is the csv1a, at 50 psi at ~3 gpm, set too close to 60? I am just not sure how that is possible. I'm wondering if there's not something else going on, like the pressure switch was malfunctioning, or the valve or something.
 

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The CSV1A has 5 PSI reduced pressure falloff when running 8-10 GPM. So if you turned up the CSV to deliver 50 PSI at 8 GPM, then it is set at about 55 PSI at 3 GPM, and 58 PSI at 1 GPM. So the pressure tank is getting filled from 58 to 60 PSI at 1 GPM, which only takes about 10 seconds.

You are making a mountain out of a small hill. Just turn the pressure switch up to 50/70 as I suggested and it will take 30 seconds to fill the tank from 58 to 70 PSI. It is not a problem to adjust the pressure up to make up for the reduced pressure falloff, you just have to turn the pressure switch up as well to get the run time needed.
 

Whipsaw

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I am not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, I am trying to understand this system. I am the one who paid a lot of money to have this well installed, and it is up to me to be able to troubleshoot and repair things. I actually asked the well guy to set up the system for me, WITH the CycleStopValve, but he basically bailed when I wouldn't do things his way. I was as polite as can be, but he wouldn't listen.

Right now, I have set the valve BACK to 50 psi at roughly 3 to 3 1/2 gallons per minute into my bucket. Do you still want me to increase the cut in and cut out pressures? I can do that.
 

Whipsaw

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I am going to buy a high quality pressure gauge to check the air on the tank. If it is indeed at 34, I should probably add some. I will crank the pressure switch 3 full turns.
 

Tom Sawyer

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Valveman calls it fall off. Those of us in the HVAC trades call it differential but at any rate it does appear that you have the cut in/out set too close to the pressure switch cut in/out. An accurate gauge is always a good idea but you don't need to spend a lot of money on it.
 

Valveman

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I did not mean to offend you. It is just that the simple little Cycle Stop Valve can have such a complicated explanation that even pump engineers don’t understand how it works or how it effects pumps. I try not to confuse people with anymore of a complicated explanation than needed. I should realize that there are many homeowners who are intelligent enough to understand how the CSV works, even though the explanation is way over the head of many pump installers. Otherwise I would have been out of business many years ago, as it is ultimately the homeowner’s decision, especially when they realize how little their pump installer actually understands. So here is something I hope you can wrap your head around.

The 1 GPM minimum flow through a CSV is just an average. A 2HP, 20 GPM sub can build as much as 181 PSI. The deeper it is to the static water level the less of this 181 PSI pressure the CSV will see by 1 PSI for every 2.31 feet to water. So if it is 72’ to the water level, the CSV on top will see a maximum pressure of 150 PSI. Now if you set the CSV to hold 50 PSI steady, that would make 100 PSI differential pressure across the CSV. With over 100 PSI differential pressure the 1 GPM bypass in the CSV will actually be letting through more like 1.5 GPM. The same CSV used with a ½ HP jet pump will only see about 20 PSI differential, which will make the minimum flow only .5 of a GPM.

This difference in minimum flow through the CSV will automatically adjust the amount of flow needed to keep the pump cool, matching the particular pump being used. A 2HP, 20 GPM sub really needs about 1.5 GPM flow to be properly cooled. While a ½ HP jet pump can easily stay cool with only .5 of a GPM flow. So your 2HP is probably pushing a minimum of about 1.5 GPM through the CSV.

Now the 4.5 gallon size pressure tank holds 1 gallon of water. But that is also an average as it will hold less water when the pressure switch setting is higher than 40/60, and it will hold more than 1 gallon if the pressure switch is set less than 40/60. At 50/70 the 4.5 gallon tank only holds about 9/10s of a gallon, while at 30/50 it holds 1.36 gallons.

So if the CSV has a minimum flow of 1.5 GPM (2HP pump) and the tank only holds 9/10s of a gallon (50/70 switch) it doesn’t take as long to fill the tank. With the CSV set at 50 PSI, it will only take a little over 30 seconds to fill the tank when using a 50/70 switch. And that is if you have the proper 48 PSI air charge in the tank. A lower air charge will actually make the tank hold even less water.

Most pump/motor manufacturers will say a motor needs to run a minimum of 1 minute, and 2 minutes is better to dissipate the heat caused during startup. However that is when the pump/motor is started at “locked rotor” amps, and running at full service factor load.

With a CSV the pump/motor has a mechanical soft start, which causes much less than locked rotor amps on startup. When filling the tank at 1 or 1.5 GPM, the running amps are reduced by 20% to 50%, depending on the particular pump being used. Starting and running at reduced amperage is called “de-rating” the load. This means the motor runs cool enough that it can actually pump hot water safely. So with cool well water it needs very little flow to maintain proper cooling, and no longer requires 1 minute of run time to dissipate starting heat.

Taking only 30 seconds to fill the tank is also usually a moot point, as the CSV will make the pump run for as long as water is being used. However, even a dripping faucet causing the pump to cycle and only take 30 seconds to fill the tank will not hurt anything, because the motor is de-rated. (running at reduced amperage)
Only having 1 gallon of water stored in the pressure tank is another moot point, as the CSV will not let the pump shut off until you have stopped using water. It is not like the old pressure tank only method where the pump cycles on/off WHILE you are using water, where the tank must hold enough to give ample off time for the motor to cool down before re-starting.

All you really need to know is that when using a CSV, .5 to 1.5 GPM flow is plenty to properly cool the pump and motor, and 30 seconds of run time is plenty.

As you can see the explanation of why this is true can be complicated. I apologize for not explaining this earlier. I have been trying for 22 years to explain this to pump installers and pump engineers. Even though there are a few good ones who understand this, I realize there are many homeowners who are more capable than many of the “professionals”. After all I spend so much time in the Internet because many homeowners try to explain these things to their installer’s everyday. I am sorry your pump installer was incapable of understanding how pumps work. You are right to question everything he says, and I will be glad to answer any questions you may have.

I told you it was a complicated explanation for such a simple valve. Hope this helps.
 

Whipsaw

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I appreciate the explanation and I will read it several times until it sticks. There are so many variables that I want to make sure I can properly address and troubleshoot any potential problems with this system. A cycle sensor is probably not a bad idea because I cannot babysit this thing like I have been the first few days.

It sounds like I need to increase the air charge in my tank as I increase the pressure switch setting. I will mark the nut on the pressure switch, and log the turns so I know exactly what adjustments have been made in the event I want to go back to the original setting.
 

Tom Sawyer

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The pressure in the tank should be about 2lbs less than pressure switch cut in pressure.
 

Valveman

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I will read it several times until it sticks. There are so many variables

See Too Much Information, sorry! The whole point of the CSV is that it will make your pump safely do anything you want to do, so you DON’T have to worry about it.

Adjustments for the CSV do not have to be that precise. Just make sure you have about 45-48 PSI air in the tank. The CSV should be adjusted to hold about 50 PSI while running 3 to 6 GPM. The pressure switch needs to be about 50/70 to get 30 seconds of run time with that 2HP pump. And you may have to turn up your pressure relief valve a little as well to keep it from dripping.

Then the CSV will let you use water anyway you want without having to worry about it. If you want even more piece of mind install a Cycle Sensor, as it will let you know the minute anything goes wrong with the CSV, pressure tank, pressure switch, or if you pump the well or cistern dry.
 
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