Submersible Pump Problem

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latreche34

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Here is the two e-mails I got from Pentair guys:
Flotec: "That should work get the smaller a ½ hp that would give you up to 13.6 gpm and you need to set it up with a 50 gallon tank so you pump doesn’t cycle too often. You need a tank to allow the pump to run for a least a full minute."
Sta-Rite: "For submersible 4” pump installs, the pump needs 10’ of water above it, and 10’ of water below it at all times."
 

Craigpump

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If the well casing had any significant amount of scale or rust build up, the pump wouldn't fit in the well.
 

Mliu

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If the well casing had any significant amount of scale or rust build up, the pump wouldn't fit in the well.
Is it possible that removing the old pump left a cylindrical cavity in the scale build-up, which the new pump is now fitting into, thus creating the intake restriction?

OP, when you raised the pump 5', did the output flow change?
 

Mliu

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Another thought...

It sounds like you installed a new drop pipe when you started this project. I assume that you're using this same drop pipe (and pipe works above the well head) after the first new pump (FloTec) did not perform. Are you sure there are no obstructions in the piping between your pump and your discharge?
 

latreche34

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Another thought...

It sounds like you installed a new drop pipe when you started this project. I assume that you're using this same drop pipe (and pipe works above the well head) after the first new pump (FloTec) did not perform. Are you sure there are no obstructions in the piping between your pump and your discharge?

I did mention that already, I'm using new sch 80 PVC pipe brand new and threaded it myself, no restrictions.
 

latreche34

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I got 10 days only to return the pump so here is what I'm going to do, Pull the pump up and keep it threaded to the pvc pipe, Get my garbage can and fill it up with water, merge the pump in it and fire it up, If I get better flow that means something wrong with my well, If I get the same flow rate then it's either the pump is defective or submersible pumps are not designed for shallow wells.
 

Mliu

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I did mention that already, I'm using new sch 80 PVC pipe brand new and threaded it myself, no restrictions.
I saw that you had used Sch80 PVC and assumed that it was new. Nevertheless, unless you physically verified that it was completely unobstructed before installing it, then you just don't know. Even a new length of pipe can have an obstruction in it. Perhaps a mouse crawled inside the 20' pipe to die and is now firmly lodged in the elbow. Who knows?

Based on your observations and descriptions, the most likely problem appears to be a flow obstruction, either at the pump's intake, or in the well system's discharge. Given that you've had this problem with two separate pumps, that your flow rate is always low even when the well column is full, and that the flow rate did not change when you raised the pump 5', my conclusion is that you have a problem in your discharge piping. I'll wager that if you pull the pump as-is and run it in a water-filled garbage can, you will see the same low flow. After that, take off the discharge piping and try running the pump alone. I bet you'll be showered with water from the geyser that will be shooting out the top.

There is absolutely nothing magical about a submersible pump that would prevent it from pumping water from a shallow well. As I said, I have been working on two shallow wells that both have 1/2HP 10GPM FloTec pumps and they both pump high volumes of water, no matter the level of the water inside the well. The static water level in these wells is ~8-10 feet, but they are low yield so they pump dry very quickly when the throttling valve is set wide-open. No matter what the water level is in the well, they pump furiously all the way down until the pump draws air (at which point the Pumptec motor protection controller shuts it off). Your current pump is oversized for your application. Not only will it be operating way outside it's pump curves (leading to its premature failure), but you'll be wasting your electricity as well. Your supplier should have asked you about your application and should never have sold you that pump. The 3/4HP pump you're looking at on Ebay is also oversized. Craigpump doesn't seem to think too highly of the quality of FloTec pumps, but the two I've been working with have been fine (one has been in service now over 4 years and is still running strong). I would return what you have now and get another 1/2HP FloTec. (I would get their model 2212 pump which is 230V since you have that power available. A 230V motor will draw half the current as a 115V motor. Less current equals less motor heating from internal resistance.)

Speaking of power, that is the only other possible source of your problems. You have not yet described the electrical system (from circuit breaker to pump). Have you verified the voltage at the well head while the pump is running? It's not enough to check the voltage while the pump is off because that does not give you voltage drop information. Voltage drop can occur if you have a point of high-resistance in your wiring (like a bad connection). When the pump is off, there is no current flow through the wiring, so the voltage will read normal as long as there is a continuous electrical path back to the source. But once the pump draws current, if there is a point of high-resistance in the wiring, the voltage will drop across that point which means the pump will not get the rated voltage that it needs to operate properly.

Btw, motors are not simple resistance loads (like old filament incandescent light bulbs). They are designed to operate at a specific rated voltage (except for universal motors which doesn't apply here). I'm surprised that your 230V motor is still operating at 115V. Have you confirmed the voltage rating on the nameplate which is on the motor (not what's printed on the packaging)? When you run a motor well below its rated voltage, it draws more current to compensate. At 1/2 the voltage, it will draw twice the current. The fact that your motor is submerged in water and only being run for short times (plus the possibility that your discharge is obstructed which will reduce the load on the pump) is probably what's saving you from burning out that motor. But you're pushing your luck.
 

latreche34

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I have an outlet for dryer it has two 115V phases and one common so when connecting the two 115V to a voltmeter I get 230V, I pop it open and connected a 10 gauge cable to it temporarily, Now back to my test That I suppose to do, Well before I even pull the pump along with the pipe it quite pumping water, So I pull it up with the pipe attached anyways and put it inside a full of water garbage can the pump is just not pumping any water, so this confirms nothing.
 

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latreche34

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So what do you guys recommend next as a pump, And what is needed to be done since the pipe is out of the well now? Is there any tests that I can do to figure out what is the problem?
 
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Reach4

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I have an outlet for dryer it has two 115V phases and one common so when connecting the two 115V to a voltmeter I get 230V, I pop it open and connected a 10 gauge cable to it temporarily, Now back to my test That I suppose to do,
So did you do the test? From what follows, and particularly the pictures, it appears that you did something.
Well before I even pull the pump along with the pipe it quite pumping water, So I pull it up with the pipe attached anyways and put it inside a full of water garbage can the pump is just not pumping any water, so this confirms nothing.
Huh? No water comes out with power applied. That tells you nothing? It tells you that you are not limited so far by the well being able to supply water, since you can see the water level in the garbage can staying high.

Does no water get pumped? You had 1 GPM being pumped when the pump was in the well. Does the pump make a sound? How are you sure that sufficient voltage is making it to the pump during the test? Does the pump get warm? You really want to describe clearly what happened during the test.

If you are getting power to the pump and the pump makes a noise, and the pump gets warm, your next step would be to detach the pump from the pipe and repeat the test that way.
 

latreche34

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The pump used to pump out about 1 GPM, it quit working inside the well, So I couldn't judge the results with a defective pump, Yes the motor runs it gets warm but no water comes out, I did detach the pipe and still no water coming out from the garbage can, The next pump I will make sure to do those tests before I drop it inside the well, After I return this pump I will get this pump and test with it as it is designed for cisterns and shallow wells, It is not brand name but being a brand name pump quit on me I don't care anymore.
I just want to mention that I tested those pumps before dropping them without any pipe attached to them at work from a plastic drum the first one 1/2 HP pumped 3 feet in the air, the second one 1 HP pumped 7 feet in the air but I didn't have anything to attach to the discharge port, Is this normal ?
 
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Mliu

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1. Why would you not tell us EVERYTHING from the beginning? Like the fact that you tested the pumps before you installed them and they pumped fine. And since you did those successful tests, why were you stating in your initial post that you thought you had gotten two defective pumps?

2. Why are you here asking for advice, and then ignoring the good advice that is given you? If you want to buy a an oversized no-name pump from some anonymous seller on Ebay, then go for it and good luck to you. Let us know how their customer service and warranty work out for you. Just because the seller wrote "shallow well" in the Ebay description doesn't make it any better suited for your application than the pump you currently have (which you've already been told is also oversized).

3. If you're going to DIY, then you should at least read the manual that came with your pump. In post #7, you admitted that you had not initially installed a throttling valve. Yet the FloTec manual clearly states that you must NOT run the pump at full flow when first developing the well because it will cause the pump to ingest sand. Also, the manual clearly states not to set the pump at the very bottom of the well.

So in light of all the new information -- including the fact that the current pump motor is running (or at least trying to) yet is not pumping from a barrel even when disconnected from the discharge pipe -- I'll wager that you have set the pumps at the bottom of your well (you've stated you're using a 20' drop pipe inside a 20' well), that you initially ran the pumps at full open discharge, and that both pumps ingested sand and sediment which is now locking up the impellers.
 

latreche34

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I didn't think that when I tested those pumps in the plastic barrel they worked ok, I was assuming that they have to pump water in the air for at least 15 to 20 feet given the fact they are rated 100+ feet, The pumps where never in the bottom of the well they were 2 feet plus motor length which is about 3 feet from the bottom, the raison for doing that is I want to have more pressure at the suction.
Where I live here around the bay area I can get pumps online only none of the local store sell them as there is no market for them, Even if I special order them at the local store I will have to pay retail price and no returns accepted at the store, I will have to deal with the manufacturer myself, Given the fact that I don't know what's the problem with my well yet, they just going to say the pump is fine and they return it to me, With ebay I can return it no questions asked and price is usually way lower than retail price.
I have city water, this DIY is just kind of a learning experience for me, I want to learn from people who do this for a living, Sometimes the frustration gets into me, but I'm patient enough to get this project done right and learn something new from you guys.

So assuming the first pump Flotec 1/2 HP was the right choice, So why it didn't pump enough water even when I moved it up about 5 feet in the water column?
 
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Craigpump

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Sometimes I wonder if some of these people aren't sitting back throwing out weird scenarios just to get to get their kicks.

This is one of those situations.

I guess it's a good thing you don't mind sticking eBay vendors with the tab for your "learning". If I were them, I'd test the pumps you have returned and bill you for them if they are destroyed.

Mliu, As for my dislike of FloTek products, I'm not impressed with 4 yrs of service, almost any piece of junk will do that. Now if you told me you had 15 yrs on a FloTek that might begin to change my mind.
 
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latreche34

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I guess it's a good thing you don't mind sticking eBay vendors with the tab for your "learning". If I were them, I'd test the pumps you have returned and bill you for them if they are destroyed.

Relax dude I didn't do anything wrong to harm the pumps, I was just trying to figure out why they are not pumping to the rated GPM, The second pump failed after few hours of use, I see a lot of complaints about pumps premature failure and you already expressed your dislike to this brand. I'm a heavy equipment mechanic we receive parts that are dead out of the box, especially nowadays that everything is made in China.
 
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