Recommended shower install materials??

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JCH

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I'm in western Canada (Victoria), so I'm looking for advice about products available here.

Been reading the posts about Kerdi here and on John Bridge and I'm getting overwhelmed.... Been to Big Orange and some contractor tile places and the number of choices is staggering!

For a first-timer like me, specifically what brands would you recommend I use for materials in a simple tiled shower (no niches, but with tiled sloped ceiling, rafters 24" OC)?

i.e. which brands of:
  • Wallboard,
  • fasteners,
  • tape
  • tape mud,
  • waterproofing,
  • tile-setting thinset (for 12"x4" tiles, plus 1"x2" glass mosaic strip), and
  • grout

Appreciate any *specific* help you could share. Once I've got specific recommendations, I'll go look up the specific installation instructions on the manufacturers' sites.

Thanks!
 

Chefwong

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John -

It's not the brands but the process...
Non Shower area - sheetrock treatment is fine.

Shower - Wet Wall Area - any concrete board of choice , denshield, hardiback

Some caulk between the joints of CBU.
I've always just used a alkai resistent tape and thinset

Don't use drywall mud for the shower area.

Waterproofing - Look at both liquid and sheet membranes. FWIW, I'm doing my next project with liquid and certain area like the niche, I plan to use sheet and liquid. Maybe overkill but I tend to build solid like a rock. (Carpenter was cursing up a storm when I had him change the RO for a interior door recently that I built out years ago) ......

Grout and thinset is subjective but Laticrete and Mapei are fine brands I prefer.
KEY advice. ALWAYS check the date /batch codeof your product. Make sure it's fresh IMO.
Grout- you ideally want them of the same batch code

Grout - Epoxy all the way for me. Cost more (labors just the same to me IMHO). Most epoxy grouts have a less than 1% absorption rate.
If you plan on white, you may NOT want epoxy just due to color

YMMV. Good luck
 
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Jadnashua

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I prefer a surface membrane, whether a sheet or liquid...it just leaves much less that can get wet in a shower. Whatever you choose, you must use good workmanship. A conventional liner shower will work, too, but surface waterproofing has its advantages. 24" OC ceiling may be a problem...some stuff can handle it, some can't, so read the instructions carefully. You could using strapping and possibly some intermediate supports to narrow that 24" OC if required, but it might lower the ceiling, leaving a step, depending on method used. one person's experience/predjudice should not make your definitive decision for you...lots of people have used and created successful showers with each of the available methods out there...some are easier for the first timer and I have my preferences, but that's one person's opinion, too.
 

JCH

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So how about if I use 2x6 blocking (with the 6" face against the ceiling) to span those 24" rafters?

Big Orange only carries a limited number of products, and pro tile shops seem to carry a dizzying array of products.

That's why I'm asking for specific recommendations for a newbie like myself.

Thanks!
 

JCH

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Sorry--should have mentioned that this will be a cast iron built-in tub (Kohler Villager) with shower head...

If I go to a pro tiling store instead (which is often cheaper than Big Orange), would that change your recommendations? I'm in BC.

Thanks!
 

Will Rogers Plumbing

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i.e. which brands of:

Wallboard, Permabase
fasteners, Roofing Nails
tape Fiberglass or stucco mesh
tape mud, Thinset
waterproofing, Kerdi with Kerdi Drain or Aquadefense with divot method
tile-setting thinset (for 12"x4" tiles, plus 1"x2" glass mosaic strip), and
grout Customs Versabond for thinset, SpectraLock or Truclolor for grout
 

Will Rogers Plumbing

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Sorry--should have mentioned that this will be a cast iron built-in tub (Kohler Villager) with shower head...

If I go to a pro tiling store instead (which is often cheaper than Big Orange), would that change your recommendations? I'm in BC.

Thanks!


If your just doing a tub surround then permabase walls, thinset and tape your joints and corners with fiberglass mesh tape. Water proof with Aquadefense on the corners and seems. You don't have to go all crazy with the water proofing on a tub surround. I like spectralock expoxy grout, trucolor urethane grout is good too, but less forgiving.
 

tomcanfixit

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Since this site is no longer recommending Schluter products, what is the recommended higher quality waterproof membrane? Are there other membranes that can be tiled over? I am replacing an improperly installed tile shower (the waterproof membrane on the shower pan had a 1/2" lip leading to the drain, so it never actually drained), and don't want the same problem caused by the concrete shower pan wicking up the water and eventually transferring it to my OSB flooring.
 

Jadnashua

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I think what you'll find is that one individual who has very specific preferences, no longer likes anything Schluter. He had some disagreements with them, and they asked him to be a bit careful about some of his misleading, and in some cases plain wrong feelings. Schluter has been in business in the USA since the 1980's and makes a good product. Their patent on some of the products expired, and in the last year or so, lots of others have started to make similar products, often from a good company, but with little track record on these specific products (for example, one just became available about 2-months ago).

As has been said, you can achieve a quality, trouble-free shower with most of the products out there. They each have their little quirks, and excel in some areas and may be less stellar in others. The TCNA guidelines (the industry bible on tiling things), has about 30 pages of different methods on how you can build a shower successfully, with different techniques. My preference is a surface membrane, primarily because when done properly, none of the infrastructure ever gets wet. Cut out material that can hold moisture, and you limit or stop the chance of grout/tile color changes that persist, and by taking moisture out of the equation, you cannot support mold or mildew growth.

Whatever material you choose, understand and follow through using it correctly.

Schluter built the first bonded flange shower drain, and the TCNA procedure (B422) was written to support it. Now, there are a few companies that make similar drains, each with slightly different characteristics. Schluter happens to ship about 1200 of them a week to the US market...it works, and is designed to work with Kerdi.

Build your shower properly, following any one of the methods in the TCNA guidelines, and you will have a reliable shower. Once you've chosen your method, you can get more specific help either here, or at www.johnbridge.com. That site has a huge amount of info in their 'Liberry' (sic) you can use as reference. Don't be swayed by one individual, listen to and understand the limitations and ramifications of the manufacture's guidelines. Then make your decision on what product(s) to use.
 

tomcanfixit

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Thanks for the prompt reply. As you suggest, I'll weigh the different opinions and make a decision soon.
 

Eurob

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Tom , What waterproofing products are you having access to ?

If you have access to Noble products , I will second that -- one individual --. :)
 

Jadnashua

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Noble makes good stuff. Noble TS is 30-mils thick. In some situations, that's a good thing...in others, it isn't. Like I said, you can make a good shower out of most all of the materials out there, but they each have their own +/-. learn what they are, then decide if they'll help or hinder your install, use it properly, and you should end up with a reliable shower.
 

ShowerDude

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Ignoring jim does not make jim go away? Although it may help tolerate!

He still spreads the same crap and mis imformation ( as of late in hyper linked longform )


Its summer and id bet Jim has a freezer full of oramge Popsicles, do you suppose hes using orange napkins?
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Ignoring jim does not make jim go away? Although it may help tolerate!

He still spreads the same crap and mis imformation ( as of late in hyper linked longform )


Its summer and id bet Jim has a freezer full of oramge Popsicles, do you suppose hes using orange napkins?


Counter Balance - just follow suit. Jim craves the attention and even debating him makes it seem like he might know what he is talking about. It would be great if you all block him.

I wonder if he can not read my posts now and the block is two fold.

If you do not read his Kerdi troll like posts then they will not bother you like me.

Let him post away - he is clearly having a hard time here with you other pros posting on Terry's forum. What huge balls he has sending people away from Terry's forum to a forum controlled by retired wanna bee's. I love how he assumes every person online is it a DIYer. Most of my online clients are tile pros and contractors looking for insight. Most of these men work in the real world that have subfloors that are not perfectly level or want to build with products that don;t require cheap non-modifed thin-set.

Jim tends to think everyone has a level home and believes all the mumble jumble about non-modifed thin-set being equal to modified. What a Orange world he lives in. I bet if someone at Schluter told him he could eat kerdi he would try it. The man is consi=umed with promoting the stuff.

And what crappy system it is - compared to Ardex or Noble Company's products.
 

Jadnashua

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Let him post away - he is clearly having a hard time here with you other pros posting on Terry's forum. What huge balls he has sending people away from Terry's forum to a forum controlled by retired wanna bee's. I love how he assumes every person online is it a DIYer. Most of my online clients are tile pros and contractors looking for insight. Most of these men work in the real world that have subfloors that are not perfectly level or want to build with products that don;t require cheap non-modifed thin-set.

Jim tends to think everyone has a level home and believes all the mumble jumble about non-modifed thin-set being equal to modified. What a Orange world he lives in. I bet if someone at Schluter told him he could eat kerdi he would try it. The man is consi=umed with promoting the stuff.

And what crappy system it is - compared to Ardex or Noble Company's products.
Well, in the last 40 threads in this forum, 28/40 were from DIY'ers, 9 were started by John Whipple, and Terry and Redshoecounterbalance had a few to round it out. Seems to me that John likes talking to himself. What happens on HIS website is a totally different environment than here where he solicits money to give his advice.

I know a lot of pros who use and prefer Schluter's products, but will use others if the situation dictates it. If it was such a crappy system as John indicates, how has it stayed in business for so long (approaching 30-years in the USA, longer in Europe) and grown so big and recently, had a bunch of imitators bring out similar products (after their patent expired)? If it was such a crappy system, why would reputable companies even consider it? John only stopped using Schluter products when they asked him to not misrepresent it or how to use it that was counter to their instructions, years of research, and hundreds of thousands of installations. But, if you are a John proponent, the company that designed, builds, distributes, and warrants the product knows nothing, and John is the god of tile.
 

Eurob

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tomcanfixit said:
Since this site is no longer recommending Schluter products, what is the recommended higher quality waterproof membrane?

A reminder of the question ...... higher quality waterproof .... Noble products is the answer .


The rest is just the usual BS .......DIYer forum ....... followed by a .... let me link you some ........

I wonder how this sounds on a sub. ;):)
 
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JohnfrWhipple

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Since this site is no longer recommending Schluter products, what is the recommended higher quality waterproof membrane? .....

These days I recommend and use only products from Noble Company (set with Ardex or Laticrete) or Ardex 8+9. Schluter's products are fine if you have a perfectly level, perfectly flat lab room to build your shower. Schluter's products are fine if you prefer using lesser grade setting materials. Schluter's products are fine if you like foam based materials for your tile prep and huge monster shower dams.

I quite using Schluter's materials completely and could not be happier.
 

Jadnashua

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More BS from John...IF you choose to use the foam tray, or ANY company's preformed one, you must start with a level floor before you install it. But, one of the many benefits of making your own mudbed (which works perfectly fine with Schluter's Kerdi), is that you can get things exactly level, with the drain installed exactly where you want it (or where your plumbing requires it!), and save money in the process. But, should you want to, and do the prep if your floor isn't level, you can easily use their foam tray, get a perfect four-plane surface pan (or single slope if you opt for their linear drain pan), and a viable curb MUCH quicker than a mudbed. A mudbed isn't all that hard, but it is intimidating for the first-timer. Plus, the materials are heavy, and mixing it up and carting it, then shaping it does take strength and has a learning curve. Using the foam tray is like setting a huge tile...spread the thinset, place the pan, shuffle across the full surface to embed it, and you're done.

Noble makes fine stuff, too. But, take any corner...you'll have at least three layers of the material on at least one area. Noble's TS is over 3x thicker than Kerdi and is no more waterproof (vapor proof, yes, not waterproof though - vapor proof is important in a steam shower, not significant in a conventional shower).

Learn about, and understand the capabilities and characteristics of the materials, then choose. John used Kerdi for a number of years before Schluter called him to task for misrepresenting it on the forum. He stopped using it, and bashes it any time he can.
 
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