Sediment particulate size test?

My mom lives on a well and soon we will too. Her well water has extremely fine sediment that smells like chalk (in the hot water) We have the same problem 20 miles away. I was trying to figure out how to tell the particulate size of the sediment, so I can get a pleated filter just smaller that those particulates. I don't want to get one too small or too big.
One way of figuring it out would be to get various sized paper laboratory filters and pour the raw water through each one until one of them does the job. The problem is I can't find a variety pack of paper filters.
Anyone know of a test kit (etc)?

PS
I'm sure over time the sediment will go away, but it would be nice to capture the stuff before our system gets filled with it

You would be a lot happier with a larger filter filled with sand. It could be backwashed manually or automatically depending on your budget.

Your going to get real tired of buying those filter cartridges.

bob...

Do you have a link to any?

You will find a comparison of performance of sand and cartridge filters at the first two links below. Both of them are from pool filter suppliers. I have not been able to find product performance specifications for sand filters used as household filters but the sand media is typically the same and the performance should be about the same.

Sand filters without coagulation chemicals, as you would use them, are reported to be effective in removing 40 micron particles.

Cartridge filters come in a variety of ratings and you could try one rating and if that didn't work you could use a cartridge with a different rating.

http://www.swimmingpoolsetc.com/poolfilters.htm

http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/epublic/pages/publicationD.jsp?publicationId=315

I use 20" long "Big Blue" size cartridges from Harmsco to treat public water supplies. Since you aren't trying to remove giardia and cryptosporidium, you could try either the 5 micron or 20 micron rating. Those are the HB-20-5W and HB-20-20W in the brochure at the link below.

The housings are available in the range of $50 to $60 and the cartridges are around $30. Cartridge life depends on how much sediment you have in your water.

http://www.harmsco.com/pdf/IP_CalypsoBlue_FINAL_040904.pdf

I would suggest doing just what you mentioned; run the water through known particle size filters. There is no easy way to actually know what filter you need without doing this.

If you get down into the 1 micron and below area a nanofilter system would be needed. Sand filters generally work on relatively gross particle sizes. As you get down to the micron and below range you need to have an idea of how much of the suspended solids you have and how annoying they are. Cartridge filters can be the solution if they can handle the particle size and if the amount of contaminants does not clog the filter over a short period of time. If you use cartridges, you have to watch for clogging.

There are back-washable automatic filters that will take out most any particles. Cheap they are not.

While I've been looking around I saw that Fleck has a control valve (5600se) that runs the water through a sediment filter (tank) and then back flushes it when it's set to. Can someone suggest an economical place to buy this set up?

This first unit will be for my mom's place. Just her most of the time so she's not a heavy water user. If this works out, I'll be getting another set up for my house when we get there

If you do not match particle size with the filter it may not work. Example: 1 micron particles and a 5 micron filter; won't remove particles. Before you spend a bunch of money on a filter system, determine what is needed. A rather good aapproach to all water treatment. If you don't know what it is, you probably don't want treat it by simply buying systems until one works.

We've been trying to get the water tested, but it's not an easy job out in western NM.
Is there a place I can send a sample to and have it tested?

Use google to search for labs. Ask them if they will do particle size tests. Or, if you can find some filters, do it yourself. I tried filters first but readily available "big blue" cartridges were not effective. I then used a University of Washington lab. They evaluated particle size and performed an x-ray crystallography test to determine the composition of the particles.

In my case it was a clay with particle size of less than 0.5 microns. Very visible, but very low concentration.

Filters remove a range of particle sizes, and percentages of particles of different sizes.

For example, the Harmsco absolute-rated cartridges remove at least 99.9% of particles in size range of giardia and cryptosporidium cysts. See data at the following link. http://www.harmsco.com/uploads/pdf/harmsco_polypleat_catalog.pdf

If you find that a cartridge filter isn't removing what you want, you can usually get a finer cartridge. You don't need to replace the housings or system.

Testing a few different cartridges that all fit the same housing will cost less than a laboratory test program. If you select a housing, such as a standard 2.5" housing or the "Big Blue" size, you will be able to get cartridges that cover all reasonable ranges of particle removal.

If you have a sand filter that is not doing what you need, and you need better particle removal, it is more uncertain whether you will be successful.

When installing cartridge filters you should consider the principle that doubling the filter area will increase the dirt-holding capacity and water-delivery-life of each cartridge by to 50 to 100%. The effect will be that it will cost less for cartridtges per unit of water delivered. That is because the life of a filter is determined by the pressure loss across the filter and by decreasing the flow in the filter it will collect more dirt before it reaches the end-of-life pressure loss.

While I've been looking around I saw that Fleck has a control valve (5600se) that runs the water through a sediment filter (tank) and then back flushes it when it's set to. Can someone suggest an economical place to buy this set up?

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That head can also come with a flow meter that tells the head when to backwash by the number of gallons passing through. I really prefer the Autotrol head for what we call backwash only. It has a steady hard backwash where the Fleck starts out slow, builds to a peak then comes back to slow again. If you are filtering out particles, that is the better head.

A filter with sand in it can filter out much smaller particles as long as you don't try to pass the water through it too fast. In other words, the filter tank must be large enough.

bob...

speedbump said:

A filter with sand in it can filter out much smaller particles as long as you don't try to pass the water through it too fast. In other words, the filter tank must be large enough.
bob...

Click to expand...

Bob; can you post any published test results on percent removal for various size particles for sand filters used without chemical coagulation? The people who sell them as pool filters say that they will remove particles around 40 microns and larger, and some particles down to 20 microns. When the sellers of both types rank them against cartridge filters the cartridge filters have better perormance, and that is for cartridges that are not as good as those usually used for potable water applications.

Sand filters will remove some particles smaller than that, but is there any data relating to how small a particle will result in 90% removal?

Also, if it is dependent on flow rate, do you have any data on what flow rates would be required for that smaller particle removal using the 9" and 12" cylindrical sand filters that are typically used in household applications?

No I sure don't Bob, I wish someone had such data. I have never seen anything written. It could be as illusive as the pump size for a water fall. I have only my experience with them over the years. One such instance was at a house I owned several years back. I had the GWHP which was fed at the time with a 40 foot shallow well that pumped a little sand and a few lime stones from time to time. The stones would stick the solonoid valve open slightly and the sand could be seen at the discharge pipe in the pond. I installed a 9X48 tank with an in/out head and it stopped all the sand which was way finer than the swimming pool filter sand I used in the filter. Of course the rocks stopped fouling my solonoid valve. My GWHP used 7.5 gpm and the 9X48 did the job, so that's a start for the data. It certainly would get boring trying to do all the testing required to get the rest. We can leave that job to the lab guys.

I do know there are flow rate requirements for Water Softeners to work properly as there is with Iron Filters and others. Gary Slusser may be able to supply some of that data which may give us a better idea.

I also don't argue the point that cartridge filters will do a perfect job for the given size material they are intended to remove. The problem I have with them is that they are not back washable and therefore become replaceable.

bob...

alternety

Do you have an address or contact number for the U of W ?
What did it cost?

Greg Mueller said:

We've been trying to get the water tested, but it's not an easy job out in western NM.
Is there a place I can send a sample to and have it tested?

Click to expand...

You should try your state first before sending a sample 1,000 miles away.

Try down in Las Cruces:

http://swatlab.nmsu.edu/

I didn't see a price, it may be free as part of the cooporative extension service.

Rancher

Greg, you probably just want a regular testing lab. I believe that these guys are a specialized lab. They did particle size just in the process of doing the crystolography. That was fairly expensive and you don't need it. I would have to see if I can find the bill if you really want to go that way. When I had the full analysis done I sent it to a lab in Pennsylvania. I tried local labs several times and kept getting different answers. The PA lab did some on the raw water and some after the filter. I hade a quite complete set of tests done to look for most anything including organic contaminalnts that can get into water supplies. If you want biologicals tested you should try local. You have to get the sample to them next day and keep it cold during shipping. Water is an expensive over night fedex package.

Check around on some lab materials sites. When I said use filters to determine size I was talking about the little pieces of filter paper you used in chemistry. I did not make that clear. I believe I saw kits of those when I was trying to fix my problem. But I also wanted to know what the material was.

It has been several years since I did this. I finaly found a whole house filter from an obscure reference on a engineering forum that gets rid of all the suspended materials down to 0.04 microns. It has lived in the utility room for several years. Chugs right along. Don't need to pay any attention to it. Backwashes every night. But expensive.

Thanks guys

alternety said:

Check around on some lab materials sites. When I said use filters to determine size I was talking about the little pieces of filter paper you used in chemistry. I did not make that clear. I believe I saw kits of those when I was trying to fix my problem. But I also wanted to know what the material was.

It has been several years since I did this. I finaly found a whole house filter from an obscure reference on a engineering forum that gets rid of all the suspended materials down to 0.04 microns. It has lived in the utility room for several years. Chugs right along. Don't need to pay any attention to it. Backwashes every night. But expensive.

Click to expand...

The limit of the unaided eye is about 40 microns, so the collection of smaller particles that you might see on filter paper would be caused by a change in reflectivity of the paper caused by the collection of a large number of particles.

The limit of visibility with the absolute best optical microscope is about 0.2 micron, and that it based on properties of light.

Bob, you are right. The thing is to filter enough water to see a film build up on the filter paper. It should give a gross determination of size. I think the lab weighed the filter paper; but I am not sure.

The web site for the regular testing is water-research.net. They are in Wilsk Barre. They have a list of tests and prices on the web site. I have not found the UW papers.

Greg Mueller said:

My mom lives on a well and soon we will too. Her well water has extremely fine sediment that smells like chalk (in the hot water) We have the same problem 20 miles away. I was trying to figure out how to tell the particulate size of the sediment, so I can get a pleated filter just smaller that those particulates. I don't want to get one too small or too big.
One way of figuring it out would be to get various sized paper laboratory filters and pour the raw water through each one until one of them does the job. The problem is I can't find a variety pack of paper filters.
Anyone know of a test kit (etc)?

PS
I'm sure over time the sediment will go away, but it would be nice to capture the stuff before our system gets filled with it

Click to expand...

IMO she needs a water test for those things normally found in private well water that can cause water spotting etc.. That's hardness, iron, manganese, pH, TDS, and sulfates and chlorides would be nice.

If this is sediment in the water heater, you don't mean it is getting out of the heater tank do you? That would be a miracle if it were. I say sediment in a heater tank isn't getting out of it, something in the water is coming out of solution in the heater AND the hot water plumbing instead.

She doesn't need a sediment filter, she needs to remove the cause of the sediment, which is probably caused by heating the water but no one can live well without hot water, so you treat the cold water to prevent the "sediment" but... to remove the sediment from the hot water, you need a filter rated for hot water use.

So get a water test, or do your own with a test kit you can buy from most big box or hardware stores, or online, or call a local water treatment dealer and post the results here. You may find the problem is hard water scale and she needs a water softener instead of a filter.

If so, you should look at a correctly sized softener using a Clack WS-1 control valve for the family size and the SFR gpm required by the house.